Does God(s) Exist and Does it Matter?

Discussion
82

Interesting.

Buddha has declared an escape out of samsara. And here is everyone talking about the possibility of staying in samsara. If it happens it happens.

When you are talking about gods. What is everyone thinking?

That the gods wasn’t human once in his past life? That the god are permanently given a rank?

What is the grand agenda of early Buddhism? Maybe you didn’t see it?

The way I see it: I see them stating rebirths of Buddha was as the highest ranking gods.
So message was he is the highest, worthy of worship
This they started slowly do. In the suttanipata.
something to think about
Secondly: they do this also with disciples or stories of people that practiced in spiritual path.
Thirdly: the message of saying gods also need to pass in a next rebirth was for you to get the message that they gods are not worth it to delight in probably to stop people in the time of India to delight in gods. They where probably obsessed in the gods. Sacrifice etc for better rebirth.

That’s why you just be happy that you found the escape from low rebirths and be happy with that. I think here again that’s what they want faithful to have faith in. Avadanas had same purpose to fill the faithful with faith how it’s possible to get good rebirth if you follow Buddha’s teaching

A monk who is restrained in his body, who is restrained in his speech, and who is restrained in his mind will escape bad rebirths.

-Dharmapada (Khotan)

Atleast for the ones aiming for Nirvana they have to know not to have delight in thinking such things. What’s the importance if it actually if it’s just another person that went threw samsara. In Buddhism there is no permanent gods for one reason. To prevent attachment to them. That’s why it was explained gods are just rebirths of former humans etc

I’m reading Ghandhara text. There is this frog was reborn in heaven while he was almost dying. A monk stepped on him, and the frog didn’t want to move so as not distract the monk hear the word by Buddha. Being concentrated itself while dying slowly and hearing words of Buddha the frog was reborn in heaven. :man_shrugging:

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It’s the same with science. Take Einstein’s theory and experiments of gravity you mentioned earlier. I assume you have not studied and understood the mathematics in your own mind, and then conducted your own experiments to verify the equations?

Like, I don’t think the world is flat, but I admit I have not done any experiments to verify that the earth is round. Like every bit of science I take to be true yet have not verified myself, I simply trust that it is true.

There are basically two reasons:

  1. Though not perfect, I trust the integrity of scientists on the whole. I dont think they’re out to manipulate me for their own goals.
  1. I trust the method of science. Science is open about assumptions, methods and conclusions. In theory, anyone can attempt to replicate a study to see for themselves.

However, you have to admit that in practice science involves a lot of trust. Due to time and resource constraints, you probably could not replicate and know for yourself all the major accomplishments of science (physics, mathematics, biology, chemistry, etc.).

Even most scientists don’t understand the mathematics of the statistical techniques they use in their fields. Instead, they trust the mathematicians and the programmers who built their software.

Regarding the EBTs:

  1. Thought not perfect, I trust the integrity of the EBTs as a whole. I don’t think they are out to deceive me for their own goals.

  2. I trust the method laid down in the EBTs. It seems to me like something I can be replicate and apply in my own life to see whether it’s true or not.

But there is a way to verify it; it involves developing the appropriate mental faculties through meditation / mental development.

The principle of this is not different than needing a microscope to see bacteria or a telescope to see distant stars. Microscopes, telescopes and other scientific instruments enhance our perceptual abilities. There’s no a priori reason why mental development should not be able to do the same.

Take e.g. history about the Roman empire. There’s a degree of uncertainty about historical events. Did Nero play the fiddle while Rome burned? How do you choose which Rome-aspects to believe and which not? Why not reject the whole thing altogether?

Maybe Nero was just invented to explain the fact that Rome almost burned down? Maybe Nero is just a product of the socio-cultural historical climate of that time?

My point here is, why should the EBTs meet a standard that is much higher and more rigorous than e.g. history?

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84

Thanks! That looks like a lot of speculative fun! :slight_smile: I have a scientific background and have read a bit too many science fiction books in my day, so I think I’ll enjoy having a look through that a bit more later.

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85

Do you mean we can see in meditation?

“If I were to perceive the auras, see the forms, stand with, talk to and engage those devas in conversation, knowledge and vision within me would thus be better purified.”

Monks, later on, living zealous, earnest, resolute, I perceived the auras, saw the forms, stood with, talked to and engaged those devas in conversation, but I knew not of those devas

Another sutta that was probably made earlier

“Well, sir, while meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, we perceive both light and vision of forms. But before long the light and the vision of forms vanish. We haven’t worked out the reason for that.”

“Well, you should work out the reason for that. Before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too perceived both light and vision of forms. But before long my light and vision of forms vanished. It occurred to me: ‘What’s the cause, what’s the reason why my light and vision of forms vanish?’ It occurred to me: ‘Doubt arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away. When immersion falls away, the light and vision of forms vanish. I’ll make sure that doubt will not arise in me again.’

No mention of devas

Bhikkhus, devas and humans delight in forms, take delight in forms, rejoice in forms. With the change, fading away, and cessation of forms, devas and humans dwell in suffering. Devas and humans delight in sounds … delight in odours … delight in tastes … delight in tactile objects … delight in mental phenomena, take delight in mental phenomena, rejoice in mental phenomena. With the change, fading away, and cessation of mental phenomena, devas and humans dwell in suffering.

The Whole point take off the delight in forms

When is lunch?

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I love my Kalyāṇa-mittatās in the Deva realms and they have helped and supported me on the path often, but I currently have no way to verify if they actually exist.

I love my Kalyāṇa-mittatās on this forum and they have helped and supported me on the path often, but I currently have no way to verify if they actually exist.

If someone helps, they help. If they don’t, they don’t. I’m not sure we should get too hung up about actual existence.

We take it on faith that there is external bases outside of our internal sense bases because it says so in the suttas, and it helps makes sense of stuff. But none of that stuff “out there” is actually verifiable is it?

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87

I like your attitude.

Actions never come to naught, even after hundreds of millions of years. When the right conditions gather and the time is right, then they will have their effect on embodied beings. —The Divyāvadāna

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Again, the only argument is “It’s written in books I love and which contain other truths I verify and trust. So I take the gods to be truths as well even though I have no way of verifying it”.

Its a faith position, yes, until its verified for oneself. The same with nibbana. Until the first stage of awakening we take that on a faith based basis. Very often I find this strange position from the secular types in that they reject rebirth, kamma and devas etc because of a lack of evidence but yet talk endlessly about nibbana and how to come to it. Only a few of the more consistent types go as far as doubting nibbana too, at which point I have to question if they really are a Buddhist at all.

Okay, so I’m making fun of the robe-adjusting Indian-names gods in the EBTs. If these are not the gods the faith-follwers believe in, which aspects exactly do they/you believe in? If the robe-adjusting is not true, why actually not? Do I as a faith-follower then pick and choose which god-aspects I believe in and which not? Why is that any better than me rejecting the whole thing?

The names are given to them by humans. We find the same gods repeated elsewhere in different cultures but with different names.

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89

I’m curious. This not question of attainment. Anyone have experience ghost? It’s seems by devas Buddha meant things on earth in the beginning right? What if he concentrated on devas on earth and humans obviously on earth also?

Some scholars believe Buddhism started as Tree Worship cult because spirits live in trees. :man_shrugging: I don’t know where that idea came from. But maybe Buddhism is older than we think

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I have never experienced anything that could be called supernatural. Petas are different to devas.

Some scholars believe Buddhism started as Tree Worship cult because spirits live in trees. :man_shrugging: I don’t know where that idea came from. But maybe Buddhism is older than we think

That would be a bizarre claim.

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91

Yeah. I don’t remember where I read that. But I did. The example they gave is the Metta Sutta. The reason it given because the spirits was disturbing the monks. The monks was next to the trees that they live

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I also remember the Story in suttas of the monk that was meditating and was going to go away because music is coming from the village. But he was convinced by a deva to stay. But again that’s in the forest. So what if the early theme was actually centered on spirits, meaning ghost

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See also AN 3.101:

…
But there comes a time when that mind is stilled internally; it settles, unifies, and becomes immersed in samādhi. That immersion is peaceful and sublime and tranquil and unified, not held in place by forceful suppression. They become capable of realizing anything that can be realized by insight to which they extend the mind, in each and every case.
…
… And so, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, may I see sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. …

To relate this to my previous response to @Gabriel, like science, the EBTs contain a body of findings (The four noble truths, rebirth, kamma, etc.) and a method to replicate / verify those findings.

Go into any academic field and you will find that each field has its own knowledge base and accepted methods :slight_smile:

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94

That’s not true. As others mentioned, deities can be verified if one develops the mind enough. That said, if one develops the mind enough, one cannot likely persuade others with your view that deities exist.

Personally, I have not developed the mind enough to see deities directly. However, by practicing Anussati, the Recollections, including recollecting deities as the Buddha teaches, I have enjoyed some of the results the Buddha speaks of in AN 3.70 and AN 11.13. The fact that these practices work is verification. I’ve already quoted AN 3.70, so here’s a quote from AN 3.70:

[6] "Furthermore, you should recollect the devas: ‘There are the Devas of the Four Great Kings, the Devas of the Thirty-three, the Devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma’s retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.’ At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the conviction, virtue, learning, generosity, and discernment found both in himself and the devas, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the [qualities of the] devas. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

Since practicing these recollections, including recollecting deities, my sila has significantly improved, too. For me, I don’t try to verify deities through sight but more through feeling and intuition.

The Buddha is not directly verifiable through sight, sounds, hearing, smell, and taste, as you seem to consider necessary for something to be true or not. Like deities, we can’t use the five senses to see the Buddha. However, most people here have faith in the Buddha, and I’m guessing people verify and develop faith in the Buddha in different ways.

One of the ways I verify the Buddha and the EBTs, which include hundreds if not thousands of references to deities like Brahma, devas, etc., is I follow his teachings and put them into practice. As a result, my life has radically changed for the better in the past 10 years, and I am certain that’s because of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. This includes the Buddha’s teachings, which again are replete with references to deities and include practices related to deities.

There are many topics in the EBTs that cannot be verified using material reductionism, but again, we can put them into practice for ourselves and investigate them. For example, if you are able to enter the immaterial jhanas and perceive the infinite base of consciousness, you can’t come out of that state and prove it to others. However, that doesn’t mean there’s no infinite base of consciousness and that your experience isn’t real.

Thanks for your challenging questions that serve as a good springboard for investigation.

with metta,

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95

Wait this common mistake. He obviously is talking about human rebirths. :man_shrugging: Look at the ending.

96

Actually above I show the difference between two similar text. One mention Buddha seeing devas. And the other he doesn’t mention it.

In the one about devas I observed this part right now.

But when the eightfold series of knowledge and vision of the higher devas was fully purified in me, then, monks, I realized as one wholly awakened to the highest awakening, unsurpassed in the world of devas, with its Māras and its Brahmās, or in the world of mankind with its recluses and godly men, devas and men.

First says unsurpassed in the world of devas
He mentions Māras
He mentions Brahmās
World of Manking, devas and men.

This came to my attention then this sutta must be talking about ghost. Because after he says world of mankind he says devas and men

Māras is everything to do with evil realms
And Brahmās is everything to do with the higher heavenly realms

So the sutta talking about devas. Not gods.

https://suttacentral.net/an8.64/en/hare

But still I see it as corrupt sutta

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Here is another quote from the sutta to clarify:

If they wish: ‘With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, may I see sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place—and understand how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds: “These dear beings did bad things by way of body, speech, and mind. They spoke ill of the noble ones; they had wrong view; and they acted out of that wrong view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. These dear beings, however, did good things by way of body, speech, and mind. They never spoke ill of the noble ones; they had right view; and they acted out of that right view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.” And so, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, may I see sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. And may I understand how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds.’ They are capable of realizing it, in each and every case.

I’ve bolded some parts. To me it seems clear that rebirth in ‘good’ or ‘bad’ places include non-human existences.

Human beings and the earth have not existed for eons either, so it does not make sense to me to recollect eons of past human lives on this physical earth we find ourselves on presently.

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98

Dear Mod I don’t see any mention of gods

It’s says

may I see sentient beings passing away and being reborn

We are talking about gods right?

I never said I don’t have faith that there is after life. But also reading such things about Hell doesn’t scare me. I think that was purpose of Nikaya compilers.

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In my mind we talking about sentient beings which we normally cannot perceive, which may or may not actually exist.

I don’t mean gods in the Judeo-Christian sense. I prefer to use terms like deva for “higher” realms and non-humans for sentient beings who are not human :slight_smile:

Edit: and to me, ‘hell’ in the thought-world of the EBTs refers to rebirth into a painful existence due to kamma. Not a result of being judged by another being (a god).

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The correct understanding of that text is that human beings or there translated sentient beings are reborn because this or that. Way to keep the layperson faithful to morality. Buddhas don’t lie. But some things must be corruption in transmission. Let’s concentrate on what Vinayas say. Since they are supposed older.

Mahavagga that I know start with seeing dependent origination. No mention of that sort of seeing rebirths.

Dig in Vinayas. It’s more pure Buddhism. With minimum change.

The first Gods mentioned in Mahavagga is one of the Guardian Kings which has to do with the 4 directions of the earth. So actually gods that dwell close to earth.

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Mahavagga

  1. Then the Blessed One (at the end of these seven days) during the first watch of the night fixed his mind upon the Chain of Causation[3], in direct and in reverse order: ‘From Ignorance[4] spring the saṃkhāras[5], from the saṃkhāras springs Consciousness, from Consciousness spring Name-and-Form, from Name-and-Form spring the six Provinces (of the six senses[6]), from the six Provinces springs Contact, from Contact springs Sensation, from Sensation springs Thirst (or Desire), from Thirst springs Attachment, from Attachment springs Existence, from Existence springs Birth, from Birth spring Old Age and Death, grief, lamentation, suffering, dejection, and despair. Such is the origination of this whole mass of suffering. Again, by the destruction of Ignorance, which consists in the complete absence of lust, the saṃkhāras are destroyed, by the destruction of the saṃkhāras Consciousness is destroyed, by the destruction of Consciousness Name-and-Form are destroyed, by the destruction of Name-and-Form the six Provinces are destroyed, by the destruction of the six Provinces Contact is destroyed, by the destruction of Contact Sensation is destroyed, by the destruction of Sensation Thirst is destroyed, by the destruction of Thirst Attachment is destroyed, by the destruction of Attachment Existence is destroyed, by the destruction of Existence Birth is destroyed, by the destruction of Birth Old Age and Death, grief, lamentation, suffering, dejection, and despair are destroyed. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.’

I don’t know all Vinayas but I’m digging

There might be as you mentioned

But it seems here Enlightenment is just needed see Dependent Origination clearly