Does God(s) Exist and Does it Matter?

Discussion
102

And Khandaka

Then the Lord during the first watch of the night paid attention to[6] causal uprising in direct and reverse order: conditioned by ignorance[7] are the habitual tendencies[8]; conditioned by the habitual tendencies is consciousness[9]; conditioned by consciousness is psycho-physicality[10]; conditioned by psycho-physicality are the six (sense-) spheres; conditioned by the six (sense-) spheres is awareness[11]; conditioned by awareness is feeling; conditioned by feeling[12] is craving; conditioned by craving is grasping; conditioned by grasping is becoming; conditioned by becoming is birth; conditioned by birth, old age and dying, grief, sorrow and lamentation, suffering, dejection and despair come into being.

BD.4.2 Such is the arising of this entire mass of ill. But from the utter fading away and stopping of this very ignorance (comes) the stopping of habitual tendencies; from the stopping of habitual tendencies the stopping of consciousness; from the stopping of consciousness[13] the stopping of psycho-physicality; from the stopping of psycho-physicality the stopping of the six (sense-) spheres; from the stopping of the six (sense-) spheres the stopping of awareness; from the stopping of awareness the stopping of feeling; from the stopping of feeling the stopping of craving; from the stopping of craving the stopping of grasping; from the stopping of grasping the stopping of becoming; from the stopping of becoming the stopping of birth; from the stopping of birth, old age and dying, grief, sorrow and lamentation, suffering, dejection and despair are stopped. Such is the stopping of this entire mass of ill. Vin.1.2

Kd.1.1.3 Then the Lord, having understood this matter, at that time uttered this (solemn) utterance:

“Truly, when things[14] grow plain
to the ardent meditating brahmin,
His doubts all vanish
in that he comprehends thing-with-cause.”

Kd.1.1.4 Then the Lord during the middle watch of the night paid attention to causal uprising in direct and reverse order: conditioned by ignorance are the habitual tendencies; conditioned by the habitual tendencies is consciousness … Such is the arising … Such is the stopping of this entire mass of ill.

Kd.1.1.5 Then the Lord, having understood this matter, at that time uttered this (solemn) utterance:

“Truly, when things grow plain
to the ardent meditating brahmin,
His doubts all vanish
in that he discerns destruction of cause.”

This I meant with corruption in the Nikāyas. Understandable they where written down also to preach Buddha words

So first step is said

comprehends thing-with-cause

Then further it’s destroyed

he discerns destruction of cause.”

Of course Buddha understood gradually and we have to also so just train in factors and keep meditating and work on the fact nothing is yours

An example of how there is corruption in Pali text

Here you see Patna Dhammapada vs Pali version in purple.
It’s the chapter on Brahmins

image

Now why should a Brahmin bow down to Buddha?
It’s not the message of Buddha. His message is to always pay respect to Teachers.

He said Brahmā is a word meaning Teachers and parents etc

you know that householders sutta

103

This is a link for Piya Tan’s Guide to the Gods for those interested in more details about the Buddhist Cosmology. There is also an interesting 10 part series by Ajahn Sona which explores the various realms in described in Buddhism.
:slightly_smiling_face:

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104

Yes the Piya tan is a good one. Thanks for the other. :pray:t4:

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105

And this there is one more to make it more complete

https://scdd.sfo2.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/original/3X/d/3/d3d0f46c3f315230ca1dd9e4650e1b7a3aebf60f.pdf

106

I think the meaning is that Brahma is the word for God they used back then. So imagine the Brahmin religion as the God based religions we have now, of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, more than half of the world population believe in some form of God.

So by saying that parents are like Gods, the Buddha is saying that if you’re willing to go to these places of worship to worship God, first worship your parents.

And of course, the correct understanding of Brahma is not as the immortal, all powerful God, but as the beings in the Brahma realms, who attained to there after Jhana attainments. There’s no denial that this being truly exist in Buddhism.

107

Wait its not true what the Bhante said Sakra is already in Vedas. It’s just another version of Indra. Like he does other jobs. Looking…

108

My point is the corruptions in the Dhammapada.

But then again Brahma-world was used during Buddha for the world of Brahmas. Meaning plurity.

Mahabrahma is used as thy God in Buddhism. But in study scholars says that during the time of Buddha, there was no importance yet to head god. So these developments came after in Buddhism.

One evidence is the 2 CE work the Mahavastu. They use mahabrahma. It’s exactly when that word was used alot. And Pali for example for the same Mahabrahma invitation to Buddha to teach. We have in place Brahma Sahampati. Which has nothing to do with Mahabrahma. It was just a former disciple new name in the Brahma-world

Once upon a time, sir, I lived the spiritual life under the fully awakened Buddha Kassapa

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.57/en/sujato

So actually I believe 100% that the Mahavastu was made by a Hindu/Buddhist Sangha.

Maha Brahma is used in place Brahma Sahampati.

Sūtras of Brahma Sahampati was found at Ghandhara. So that’s our proof that the belief that Lokottaravāda that claimed they had the original teachings can not be trusted fully. Because 2 CE Hinduism was probably infiltrated into Sangha.

That’s why they use more of Mahabrahma in place like Brahma Sahampati like the school of the Elders

A Comparison of the Pāli and Chinese Versions of the Brahma Saṃyutta, a Collection of Early Buddhist Discourses on Brahmās, the Exalted Gods

Evidence maybe of the developments in Buddhism

https://journals.equinoxpub.com/BSR/article/viewFile/26532/22669

@JimInBC @brooks @Ficus @faujidoc1
@Ceisiwr @Erika_ODonnell @Gabriel @NgXinZhao @Gillian

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109

You can delete the bit that’s a mistake. Click on the three dots bottom right of your post. Then, to delete the whole post, click on the rubbish bin, or click on the pencil to just edit it. :slight_smile:

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110

I meant the link I share before was the wrong one. This is correct one.

111

Many thanks for the link of Choong MK’s article. One may need to notice the term, Mahabrahma, is not particularly mentioned in the text of Brahma Samyutta/Samyukta.

112

Don’t worry so much: Guanyin already knows she doesn’t exist!

:laughing:

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113

Yes that true. I meant in Mahavastu it’s used. So my point. How a 2 CE text has that word because by that time in India used of that word and much Hindu influence

115

Interesting discussion! As one of the members rightly pointed, it all boils down to the factor of faith. Gods/Devas are intrinsically linked to the doctrine of rebirth and kamma, which are also matters to be taken on faith, at least until we develop our minds to the point where we can verify these things on our own. Until then, if we are hesitant to believe these things, the least we can do is to keep the door open for possibilities, and reserve judgement, instead of outright rejection. I second @Erika_ODonnell 's point that there’s an element of trust or faith even in Science, which is itself evolving with each day and is far from giving a comprehensive and consistent view of reality.
In these matters of faith and doubt, one particularly helpful essay I have found is Ven. Thanissaro’s ‘Faith in Awakening’ which is included in his book ‘Purity of Heart’. Here he remarks -
" There’s a hint of this need for faith even in the discourse to the Kalamas:

“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These mental qualities are skillful; these mental qualities are blameless; these mental qualities are praised by the wise; these mental qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them.”

— [AN 3.65]

The first few phrases in this passage, refuting the authority of scripture and tradition, are so strikingly empirical that it’s easy to miss the phrase buried further on, asserting that you have to take into account what’s praised by the wise. That phrase is important, for it helps to make sense of the Buddha’s teachings as a whole. If he had simply wanted you to trust your own unaided sense of right and wrong, why would he have left so many other teachings?

So the Buddha’s advice to the Kalamas is balanced: Just as you shouldn’t give unreserved trust to outside authority, you can’t give unreserved trust to your own logic and feelings if they go against the genuine wisdom of others. As other early discourses make clear, wise people can be recognized by their words and behavior, but the standards for wisdom are clearly measured against the Buddha and his noble disciples, people who’ve already touched awakening. And the proper attitude toward those who meet these standards is faith."
Here’sthe full book PurityofHeart_181215.pdf (668.0 KB)
Ven. Thanissaro elaborates on the issue of faith in rebirth and supernatural realms in this essay - Worlds.pdf (55.8 KB)

Edit - As to answer the OP, I do believe in the possibility of devas existing, even if they might be not be exactly the same as portrayed in the suttas. And their existence does matter, even if little, in the EBTS. Hope this answers your question. :anjal:

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116

I like the Kalamas version of Agamas also because it kind points to the same idea. But in there Buddha saying more like if you yourself cant see certain things ofcourse there is doubt. So focus on what follows is almost like the Pali version. Of the wholesome and unwholesome

118

Sadhu. It seems dangerous to outright reject fundamental aspects of the EBTs.

Sadhu. A good example of this is how Einstein grappled with Quantum mechanics and quantum entanglement calling it, “spooky action at a distance.” This aspect of quantum mechanics seemed to mystify Einstein more than the notion of God.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/04/einstein-s-spooky-action-distance-spotted-objects-almost-big-enough-see

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119

this position is like some flat-earther in the Buddhist world.

Although that’s ok. We know in Buddhism the doubts in absence of a personal empirical experience is common and logical.

Just we should note how Science is proven to be more religious with some topics in that same space. In example, with the doubts from flat-earthers when they say they lack of the personal sense experience.

What could we think about this difference?.

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120

Gods on the threshold of percipience present a fascinating case:

AN4.171:7.6: But sir, in the case of the reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective, what kind of gods does this refer to?”
AN4.171:7.7: “Sāriputta, it refers to the gods reborn in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”

The Buddha then goes on to explain how these gods become returners or non-returners. And from that detailed explanation, one might understand that practicing every moment for non-return (i.e., no lower fetters) bears fruit sooner than solely practicing immersion to be without wishes.

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121

Thanks to @sabbamitta, I was able to search Bhante Sujato’s sutta translations to discover the following:

  • 721 of the 4000 sutta files contained the word “Brahma.”

  • 500 of the suttas contain the word “god”

  • 561 of the suttas contain the word “deva”

Considering that almost 1/4 of the suttas mention Brahma and over 500 of them include the terms god and/or deva, is it reasonable to argue that Brahma, devas, and deities are later additions to the EBTs?

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123

Thank you for taking the time to respond @Upasaka_Dhammasara. I’m sorry but because of our language barrier, I don’t think I understand your posts enough to be able to meaningfully respond to them. At least not posts like this that involve complicated facts, arguments, and history.

That said, I appreciate you sharing one of Kind Asoka’s edicts. It seems consistent with the EBTs and their discussion of deities.

with metta,

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126

Maybe that’s part of it.

This is an example. I don’t understand this sentence.

Thank you! It did seem like I was better able to understand your post after you edited it.

with metta,

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