SuttaCentral

Does nibbidā mean "revulsion" or "disillusionment"?

ebt-translation
Tags: #<Tag:0x00007fc4570f9628>

#41

It needs a third axis to account for spiritual bypassing and patchy progress


#42

perhaps those with more craving in some areas require a stronger antidote.


#43

Nibbida means disconnecting or detaching.


#44

Yes, though I also see the implication of moving away from one thing ( conditioned ) and towards another ( unconditioned ).


#45

Yes, perhaps it can work like “dukkha” with shades of meaning ranging from vague unsatisfactoriness all the way to strong pain/grief. Welcome to the forum by the way! :slight_smile:


#46

thank you Suaimhneas, nice to learn from such a diverse group


#47

Craving is the ‘housebuilder’. When craving for the aggregates stop the aggregates themselves can temporarily stop. This is Nibbana ‘where nothing is felt’.


#48

‘Dark knight of the soul’ is a 16th century Christian concept. I am reluctant to use that to describe this as I’m not an expert in that concept. Also the period or intensity of nibbida varies from seconds to weeks in different minds so it might a happening of minor proportion for some and very significant for others - some who are unprepared can break off thir vipassana meditation at this point. Right view prepares the mind for this period and some find contemplating the qualities of the Buddha helpful.


#49

1-7 steps of N8FP leads to 1-7SB leads to knowledge as it really is (yathabhutha nana), leads to nibbida, dispassion and release/nibbana.


#50

Me too, but I’ve come across this expression in a Buddhist context, here for example: MCTB 5. Dissolution, Entrance to the Dark Night - Wiki - www.dharmaoverground.org


#51

Which of these two has a finer splendor: such a beryl gem, or a firefly in the dark of night?”
“A firefly in the dark of night, sir.” –MN79

Perhaps even in the darkest of nights a firefly might offer hope.


#52

Yeah, I’m loathe to give such a description of students who go through nibbida. Consider communication: difficulty identifying their insights or emotions, difficulty eliciting those insights-emotions- despite the theory the progress of insight doesn’t happen along a straight line. Its more like random insights develop incrementally, but all of them can be elicited in the end. I prefer the simple but broad nibbida, dispassion and cessation formulation of the EBTs as that captures the broad changes more accurately.


#53

If one properly develops the immersion of gaining knowledge and vision, how could the experience of nibbida become overwhelming and crushing?

And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision?
It’s when a mendicant focuses on the perception of light, concentrating on the perception of day regardless of whether it’s night or day –AN4.41


#54

Some try a vipassana only approach. While it’s debatable whether such a thing is possible, the safest approach is to clearly develop Right view, and develop the seven factors of enlightenment, including jhana to end with insight. The variation among practitioners are so great and difficult to determine that practically it is not straightforward like in the ‘book’.

I take issue with this sutta as I think the bhanakas mixed up the verses - the sign of day-light usually generate what’s called a ‘brightened mind’. It helps with the hindrance of drowsiness and doesn’t give rise to insight knowledge. It’s statements should be compared to the rest of the suttas.


#55

Oh! How interesting. Here is a search for the phrase “focuses on the perception of light.”

As you can see, it occurs in three suttas. Unfortunately, it also occurs in DN33, which I study daily. Am I learning wrong? That would not be good for me.
:pray:

And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision?
A mendicant focuses on the perception of light, concentrating on the perception of day regardless of whether it is night or day.
And so, with an open and unenveloped heart, they develop a mind that’s full of radiance.
This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision
–DN33/en/sujato

Meditating on these words does not cause me confusion or distress. And yes, there is an apparent contradiction between this saying and the teaching on dark, light and neither dark or light. However, skill on focusing on the perception of light would seem quite advisable to master before attempting skill in “neither dark or light”. So there is no contradiction for me in this teaching on focusing on the perception of light.


#56

Giving up desire for the world, they meditate with a heart rid of desire, cleansing the mind of desire. Giving up ill will and malevolence, they meditate with a mind rid of ill will, full of compassion for all living beings, cleansing the mind of ill will. Giving up dullness and drowsiness, they meditate with a mind free of dullness and drowsiness, perceiving light, mindful and aware, SuttaCentral

So abhijjhaṃ loke pahāya vigatābhijjhena cetasā viharati, abhijjhāya cittaṃ parisodheti; byāpādapadosaṃ pahāya abyāpannacitto viharati sabbapāṇabhūtahitānukampī, byāpādapadosā cittaṃ parisodheti; thinamiddhaṃ pahāya vigatathinamiddho viharati ālokasaññī sato sampajāno, thinamiddhā cittaṃ parisodheti; an9.40

But what if that doesn’t work? Then focus on the perception of light, concentrating on the perception of day, regardless of whether it’s night or day. And so, with an open and unenveloped heart, develop a mind that’s full of radiance. It’s possible that you’ll give up drowsiness in this way.

Giving up dullness and drowsiness, they meditate with a mind rid of dullness and drowsiness, perceiving light, mindful and aware, cleansing the mind of dullness and drowsiness.SuttaCentral

It just makes logical sense that the perception of light causes will work on melatonin perhaps and stave off drowsiness and not lead to nibbana because it won’t generate wisdom. At most it works on development of samadhi or adhicitta.


#57

I had not considered the perception of light meditation to be a cure for drowsiness, but you’re right, the Buddha does recommend that for nodding off, which I’ve added as an SCV search example. I tried it briefly this afternoon and it does indeed work better than “rousing energy”. My energy seems to be focused on digestion after a meal, so it always felt unnatural to fight my body when all it was doing is digesting. But focusing on light was something new I had never tried. Thank you!

And I do think that meditation on the perception of light does yield wisdom. During the summer I meditated walking outdoors twice a day every 12 hours. During the day it was pleasant and warm. During the night is was dark, cold, scary and difficult. But meditating on the perception of light during both walks yielded insights about clinging to pleasant warmth as well as avoiding dark scary cold. Wisdom and equanimity both emerged.


#58

Perception of light is actually perceiving it. Thinking about perceiving light can’t get rid of sedated mental states. Exploring our defilements can remove them and requires some wisdom to counteract the ignorance behind it…


#59

This is what the Buddha said and it works for me:

mendicant focuses on the perception of light, concentrating on the perception of day regardless of whether it is night or day. --DN33


#60

You may not be in concordance but knowledge and vision, what DN33 says leads to ‘knowledge and vision’ doesn’t arise from perception of light. The latter leads to overcoming drowsiness. Look at this sutta:

1“Sir, what’s the purpose and benefit of skillful ethics?” “Ānanda, having no regrets is the purpose and benefit of skillful ethics.”

2“But what’s the purpose and benefit of having no regrets?” “Joy is the purpose and benefit of having no regrets.”

3“But what’s the purpose and benefit of joy?” “Rapture …”

4“But what’s the purpose and benefit of rapture?” “Tranquility …”

5“But what’s the purpose and benefit of tranquility?” “Bliss …”

6“But what’s the purpose and benefit of bliss?” “Immersion …”

7“But what’s the purpose and benefit of immersion?” “Truly knowing and seeing …”

8“But what’s the purpose and benefit of truly knowing and seeing?” “Disillusionment …”

9“But what’s the purpose and benefit of disillusionment?” “Dispassion …”

10“But what’s the purpose and benefit of dispassion?” “Knowledge and vision of freedom is the purpose and benefit of dispassion. SuttaCentral

This sutta shows how samatha leads to vipassana or insight meditation.

I understand if you cannot agree with it.

with metta