Does the Tathagata exist before death?

[Ric]

New thread originating from

Did The Buddha Only Teach Dukkha and Its Cessation?

Sorry for kicking an old topic. But I just stumbled upon it googling. Bodhi wrote: In SN22.86 the point is rather that there is no Tathagata (i.e. no Self) before death so the four phrases on the Tathagata after death also don’t apply. The annihilists, though, think there is a Self that does get destroyed at death. And that is what the Buddha is deying. So both instances of this often misunderstood phrase “I declare only suffering and the cessation of suffering” are the Buddha denying a Self…