Does anyone have a Sutta suggestion or perhaps some insight into doubt as a hinderence?
I doubt I can get jhana… Is it as simple as that?
Doubt eats energy, causes stress, can recall fear or anxiety which can cause distractions or rationalizations for greed or not extending effort or openness which makes for self-fulfilling prophesies/expectations for failure, inappropriate attention, heedlessness or anti-mindfulness… Upsets digestion, posture, and paying attention to what one is doing right now… Stimulates thoughts, more doubts, reasoning and then the day is gone, poof, and what was one doing? (Not nothing not well).
Among other things. I look forward to enjoying suttas on topic, if when shared.
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That could be one of the ways doubt hinders the mind. The context of 5niv (hindrances), is that 5niv prevent the mind from being undistractable-and-lucid (samadhi).
So in this context, “hindering” means whatever way one’s energy gets scattered and unable to focus and see clearly, from whichever of the 5niv.
DN 2 offers 5 famous similes corresponding to 5niv, and this explanation preceding the 5 similes for doubt:
(DN 2 b.sujato)
Giving up doubt, they meditate having gone beyond doubt, not undecided about skillful qualities, cleansing the mind of doubt. Vicikicchaṃ pahāya tiṇṇavicikiccho viharati, akathaṅkathī kusalesu dhammesu, vicikicchāya cittaṃ parisodheti.
and the simile for doubt supports your interpretation, doubting that one can cross the desert,
Suppose there was a person with wealth and property who was traveling along a desert road, which was perilous, with nothing to eat. Seyyathāpi, mahārāja, puriso sadhano sabhogo kantāraddhānamaggaṃ paṭipajjeyya dubbhikkhaṃ sappaṭibhayaṃ. But after some time they crossed over the desert safely, reaching the neighborhood of a village, a sanctuary free of peril. So aparena samayena taṃ kantāraṃ nitthareyya sotthinā, gāmantaṃ anupāpuṇeyya khemaṃ appaṭibhayaṃ. Thinking about this, Tassa evamassa: ‘ahaṃ kho pubbe sadhano sabhogo kantāraddhānamaggaṃ paṭipajjiṃ dubbhikkhaṃ sappaṭibhayaṃ. Somhi etarahi taṃ kantāraṃ nitthiṇṇo sotthinā, gāmantaṃ anuppatto khemaṃ appaṭibhayan’ti. they’d be filled with joy and happiness. So tatonidānaṃ labhetha pāmojjaṃ, adhigaccheyya somanassaṃ.
another set of similes, using water, goes something like this (going by memory, could be wrong):
- lust: water is colored with dyes, can’t see clearly
- ill will: water is boiling hot
- sloth&torpor: water has algae growing in it, obscuring vision
- restlessness & remorse: wind blown water hard to see clearly?
- skeptical doubt: I don’t remember. Don’t worry someone within 24 hours will look up the exact sutta reference and refresh our memory.
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AFAIK, there is no clear definition of what is doubt (vicikiccha) in the Suttas, but we can find the definition from Vibhanga of Abhidhamma:
Therein what is doubt? One is puzzled, doubts in the Teacher; one is puzzled, doubts in the Teaching; one is puzzled, doubts in the Order; one is puzzled, doubts in the precepts; one is puzzled, doubts in the ultimate beginning (of beings); one is puzzled, doubts in the ultimate end (of beings); one is puzzled, doubts in both the ultimate beginning and the ultimate end (of beings); one is puzzled, doubts in specific causality and dependently originated dhammas; that which is similar, puzzlement, being puzzled, state of being puzzled, rigidity of consciousness, mental scarifying. This is called doubt.
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Yeah but I’m meditating not thinking
Thanks for the info though, maybe the abhidammah is about doubt the fetter??
rigidity of consciousness
Hmmm hmmmm
Yes, it is discussed in fetters (samyojana) section 
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Ah, I see, thanks seniya
Very nice set of similes alright. I knew they were contained in Sarah Shaw’s “Buddhist Meditation” anthology from the Pali canon. I looked it up in the anthology and they are from AN5.193.
Here’s the part on doubt (Sujato translation):
Furthermore, when your heart is overcome and mired in doubt … Even hymns that are long-practiced aren’t clear to the mind, let alone those that are not practiced. Suppose there was a bowl of water that was cloudy, murky, and muddy, hidden in the darkness. Even a person with good eyesight examining their own reflection wouldn’t truly know it or see it. In the same way, there’s a time when your heart is overcome and mired in doubt and you don’t truly understand the escape from doubt that has arisen. At that time you don’t truly know or see your own good, the good of another, or the good of both. Even hymns that are long-practiced aren’t clear to the mind, let alone those that are not practiced.
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“And what, bhikkhus, is the denourishment that prevents unarisen doubt from arising and arisen doubt from increasing and expanding? There are, bhikkhus, wholesome and unwholesome states, blameable and blameless states, inferior and superior states, dark and bright states with their counterparts: frequently giving careful attention to them is the denourishment that prevents unarisen doubt from arising and arisen doubt from increasing and expanding. - SN 46.51
So instead of worrying about whether you can attain jhana, just keep focusing on what you know to be skillful for your meditation practice.
Also, perhaps in this case you need to become a bit more conceited 
:
“‘This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.’ Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, ‘The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.’ The thought occurs to him, ‘The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?’ Then he eventually abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. - AN 4.159
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Great!
SN 46.51 is an expanded version of SN 46.2. It’s good to compare those two suttas for some more insights.
SN 46.2
(5. Vicikiccha)
For the several of the 5niv and 7sb (awakening factors), the Buddha punts and just says, like he does for vicikiccha here, that there are many reasons/ways/causal-events that are nutriment for that (-ṭhānīyā dhammā.).
And the answer he gives for denourishing doubt quoted above, is exactly the same answer for the nutriment of Dhamma-vicaya-awakening-factor.
“{And} what, monks, [is the] nutriment (for) un-arisen doubt's arising, (and) arisen doubt's growth,-development (and) abundance? There-is, monks, doubt’s- causal events. (To) that-there, un-wise-mental-production-frequently-done, is-the-nutriment (for) un-arisen doubt's arising, (and) arisen doubt's growth,-development (and) abundance.
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Hi Sineru
For me, unless a specific context is supplied, any mention of doubt in authentic sutras, are talking about the same thing and it is the opposite of the Fruit of Stream entry, so it would be doubt in the Tripple Gem. Best wishes
That’s ok. I don’t take the five hindrances as specifically ‘meditative’ hindrances, which I see is a commentarial and limiting view, but as hindrances for progress on the path in general, so they cover the THREE trainings: ethics, meditation and wisdom. Talk of ‘nimitas’ in the way I understand you mention is also commentarial to me. Best wishes
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I think likewise, based partly on the way that mindfulness of the 5 hindrances is described in the fourth frame of satipatthana ( MN10 ).
The impression I gained from reading the Samyuta Nikaya is that the 5 hindrances are progressively “displaced” by the 7 factors of enlightenment.
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Hi Whippet
Then it would seem that the 7 enlightement factors are also progressive? Do they look like they are presented so in the SN?
best wishes
Maybe somewhere in sutta-s [as found above], but very likely to be found also in the Visuddhimagga. Whatever one may think of that text, it’s a treasure-chest of similes.
It would seem so in the description of attaining them in the Anapanasati Sutta. I recall also V. Ganaratana describing such a progression in one of this books.
“Brahmin, there’s a time when your heart is overcome and mired in sensual desire and you don’t truly understand the escape from sensual desire that has arisen. At that time you don’t truly know or see your own good, the good of another, or the good of both. Even hymns that are long-practiced don’t recur to the mind, let alone those that are not practiced.
Suppose there was a bowl of water that was mixed with dye such as red lac, turmeric, indigo, or rose madder. Even a person with good eyesight examining their own reflection wouldn’t truly know it or see it.
…
SuttaCentral
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