Doubt in the context of the five hindrances?

“And what, bhikkhus, is the denourishment that prevents unarisen doubt from arising and arisen doubt from increasing and expanding? There are, bhikkhus, wholesome and unwholesome states, blameable and blameless states, inferior and superior states, dark and bright states with their counterparts: frequently giving careful attention to them is the denourishment that prevents unarisen doubt from arising and arisen doubt from increasing and expanding. - SN 46.51

So instead of worrying about whether you can attain jhana, just keep focusing on what you know to be skillful for your meditation practice.

Also, perhaps in this case you need to become a bit more conceited :grin::

“‘This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.’ Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, ‘The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.’ The thought occurs to him, ‘The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?’ Then he eventually abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. - AN 4.159

:anjal:

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Great!

SN 46.51 is an expanded version of SN 46.2. It’s good to compare those two suttas for some more insights.

SN 46.2

(5. Vicikiccha)

For the several of the 5niv and 7sb (awakening factors), the Buddha punts and just says, like he does for vicikiccha here, that there are many reasons/ways/causal-events that are nutriment for that (-ṭhānīyā dhammā.).

And the answer he gives for denourishing doubt quoted above, is exactly the same answer for the nutriment of Dhamma-vicaya-awakening-factor.

Ko ca, bhikkhave,
“{And} what, monks, [is the]
āhāro an-uppannāya vā
nutriment (for) un-arisen
vicikicchāya uppādāya,
doubt's arising,
uppannāya vā vicikicchāya
(and) arisen doubt's
bhiyyo-bhāvāya vepullāya?
growth,-development (and) abundance?
Atthi, bhikkhave,
There-is, monks,
vicikicchāṭ-
doubt’s-
-ṭhānīyā dhammā.
causal events.
Tattha a-yoniso-manasi-kāra-bahulī-kāro—
(To) that-there, un-wise-mental-production-frequently-done,
ayamāhāro an-uppannāya vā
is-the-nutriment (for) un-arisen
vicikicchāya uppādāya,
doubt's arising,
uppannāya vā vicikicchāya
(and) arisen doubt's
bhiyyo-bhāvāya vepullāya.
growth,-development (and) abundance.
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Hi Sineru
For me, unless a specific context is supplied, any mention of doubt in authentic sutras, are talking about the same thing and it is the opposite of the Fruit of Stream entry, so it would be doubt in the Tripple Gem. Best wishes

That’s ok. I don’t take the five hindrances as specifically ‘meditative’ hindrances, which I see is a commentarial and limiting view, but as hindrances for progress on the path in general, so they cover the THREE trainings: ethics, meditation and wisdom. Talk of ‘nimitas’ in the way I understand you mention is also commentarial to me. Best wishes

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I think likewise, based partly on the way that mindfulness of the 5 hindrances is described in the fourth frame of satipatthana ( MN10 ).
The impression I gained from reading the Samyuta Nikaya is that the 5 hindrances are progressively “displaced” by the 7 factors of enlightenment.

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Hi Whippet

Then it would seem that the 7 enlightement factors are also progressive? Do they look like they are presented so in the SN?

best wishes

Maybe somewhere in sutta-s [as found above], but very likely to be found also in the Visuddhimagga. Whatever one may think of that text, it’s a treasure-chest of similes.

It would seem so in the description of attaining them in the Anapanasati Sutta. I recall also V. Ganaratana describing such a progression in one of this books.

“Brahmin, there’s a time when your heart is overcome and mired in sensual desire and you don’t truly understand the escape from sensual desire that has arisen. At that time you don’t truly know or see your own good, the good of another, or the good of both. Even hymns that are long-practiced don’t recur to the mind, let alone those that are not practiced.
Suppose there was a bowl of water that was mixed with dye such as red lac, turmeric, indigo, or rose madder. Even a person with good eyesight examining their own reflection wouldn’t truly know it or see it.

SuttaCentral

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A person can develop a mental tendency to be very trustful. He can trust all sort things that he should not and therefore be easy to scam by scammers, fall for propaganda, etc.

In the same way, one can develop a mental tendency to be very doubtfull. He can doubt even things that he should not. There is even the philosophy of postmodernism that is encouraging this. A person with this tendency strongly developed can even doubt weather the world is round or flat.

This might also refer to something else. For example a soldier might be doubtful that they can win the war. This doubt would lower his moral and therefore be unbeneficial for his goal.

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Yes, I think so, the suttas describe the 7 factors as being “developed and cultivated”. The seven factors look like antidotes to the 5 hindrances.

something can be ‘developed and cultivated’ but not progressive, that is, step by step (opanāyiko).

If they fitted the gradual path pattern, then they would be progressive, vis my post: Suttas with other possible versions of the gradual path

best wishes

Though there are six or so parallels of Anapanasati Sutta in the SN, the main one is MN118. So, it would seem you didn’t address my question re your reading of the SN. I’m guessing you didn’t notice them being presented as a progression, that is, from one to the other, step by step.

best wishes

I would suggest people study the difference between the SN versions and MN 118 carefully. I regard MN 118 as the later and less preferable verison to study than the SN parallels.

The SN parallels are all the same sutta just being repeated and told to different audiences. MN 118 is mostly the same as the SN parallel, but there’s one big difference.

There are 20 suttas in SN 54, the anapanasati samyutta. Around sutta #7, there’s a shift, where the first 6 suttas the Buddha described the practice of 16 APS as anapanasati. In the remaining suttas from 7-20, where the 6 MN 118 parallels reside, the Buddha starts calling the same 16 APS as 16 APSS (anapanasati-samadhi).

It looks to me like Theravada over time changed by trying to segregate “sati” from the 8aam (noble eightfold path), whereas the earlier suttas there was more organic coherence and unity.

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SN 54, “13 (3) Ananda (1)” appears to go through the satta bojjhaṅgā “coming to fulfilment” in progressive order – establishing one enables establishing the next – identically to MN 118 (other than being directed to “bhikkhus” rather than “Ananda”). Likewise, apparently, the variants in 14, 15, and 16. That is not “step by step”?

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Is this to suggest that the ordering within SN 54 is intended to represent historical sequence of the texts?

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I’m getting a lot of email from this thread so I’ve made this simple to understand. I was at a class on Sunday and ajahn brahm clearly explains the five hinderences in his last installment of the word of the Buddha. You guys are way off topic. Please create another thread if you want to continue your discussion.

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Hi CJ

Our discussion seems to have gotten off topic. In any case, thanks for that clear answer. Yes, that indeed reads as step by step, to me.

It is encouraging to see ‘step by step’ presentations of practice. Though the 37bhj do not seem to fit the pattern of the ‘step by step’ path identified by Dr Rod Bucknell back in the 1980s, which I believe is generally authentic, as it follows the pattern of ethics, meditation and wisdom, as the Tenfold Path Does, unlike the ‘Noble Eightfold Path’.

I might post your reply to a more relevant topic and continue any further conversation on this there: Suttas with other possible versions of the gradual path

best wishes

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As per the request of the OP, this topic has run its course and is now closed.