End point of Asubha practice

Q & A
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Right View results from practising the Noble Eightfold Path. Buddha regularly teaches the importance of the practising kāyagatāsati (asubha is one facet) for the realisation of liberation:

Bhikkhus, when one thing is developed and cultivated, ignorance is abandoned … true knowledge arises … the conceit ‘I am’ is abandoned … the underlying tendencies are uprooted … the fetters are abandoned. What is that one thing? Mindfulness directed to the body. When this one thing is developed and cultivated, ignorance is abandoned … true knowledge arises … the conceit ‘I am’ is abandoned … the underlying tendencies are uprooted … the fetters are abandoned.
Kāyagatāsativagga AN 19

Bhikkhus, they do not partake of the deathless who do not partake of mindfulness directed to the body. They partake of the deathless who partake of mindfulness directed to the body
Amatavagga AN 20

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I’ve been doing these practices for a long time in many permutations and have found them to be extremely useful and effective. When you start to see results, when you see the actual transformation in perception then they are seen as medicine, the aversion to them is dispelled and they’re really appreciated. Many of the acclaimed Thai masters have used them as a part of their practice. Of course, practice is not ‘one size fits all’, and it needs to suit the needs and conditions for each practitioner at that specific time.

To highlight the beneficial effect and to be able to see them as a balm and medicine The Adantagutta sutta (Untamed, Unguarded), presents the results of the practices in a really inspiring way :slightly_smiling_face: SuttaCentral SN35.95 I hope you enjoy it, It is such a beautiful verse

Not being moved by perceptions of pleasant or unpleasant, one is unmoved and all craving/grasping is ended… the end point - Nibbana

Ashuba practices directly contribute to changing perception so as to dispel craving. The way they do this is to demonstrate that there is no intrinsic/permanent ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’ in any thing… we just believe there is due to conditioning. The conditioning can be so strong that it is unimaginable that it could be seen any other way, that the ‘pleasant’ can really be ‘unpleasant’. This results in really strong craving and engagement, grasping striving, becoming etc. The training is to break through this in many ways, one of which is seeing the unpleasant in the pleasant. and this is especially used where some specific objects are strongly desired because of the illusion of how wonderful they are. Since the body, and desire for the opposite sex is a common issue, contemplating the unpleasant in what is otherwise perceived as pleasant is a direct antidote :smile: :skull: :bone: When one has actively and purposefully transformed ones perception of an object, it becomes clear how insubstantial perception itself is… how it is completely conditioned and based on illusion/delusion. So in this way it has a much deeper effect than simply as an antidote to a particular craving, if you take it deeper.

When one trains in flexibility of perception and expands it and takes it further and applies it to more things in all sense modalities, it highlights the insubstantiality of all perceptions… the principles underpinning the practice are about realising that there is nothing inherent or permanent in any thing perceived, it is simply dependently arisen :slightly_smiling_face:

… and the end point of practice… Nibbana. This is seeing only the seen in the seen etc - ie seeing things as they really are - and then what is there to crave?

SuttaCentral.

“Just six, O bhikkhus, are the bases for contact,
Where one unrestrained meets with suffering.
Those who know how to restrain them
Dwell uncorrupted, with faith their partner.

“Having seen forms that delight the mind
And having seen those that give no delight,
Dispel the path of lust towards the delightful
And do not soil the mind by thinking,
‘The other is displeasing to me.’

“Having heard sounds both pleasant and raucous,
Do not be enthralled with pleasant sound.
Dispel the course of hate towards the raucous,
And do not soil the mind by thinking,
‘This one is displeasing to me.’

“Having smelt a fragrant, delightful scent,
And having smelt a putrid stench,
Dispel aversion towards the stench
And do not yield to desire for the lovely.

“Having enjoyed a sweet delicious taste,
And having sometimes tasted what is bitter,
Do not greedily enjoy the sweet taste,
Do not feel aversion towards the bitter.

“When touched by pleasant contact do not be enthralled,
Do not tremble when touched by pain.
Look evenly on both the pleasant and painful,
Not drawn or repelled by anything.

“When common people of proliferated perception
Perceive and proliferate they become engaged.
Having dispelled every mind-state bound to the home life,
One travels on the road of renunciation.

“When the mind is thus well developed in six,
If touched, one’s mind never flutters anywhere.
Having vanquished both lust and hate, O bhikkhus,
Go to the far shore beyond birth and death!”

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Is this teaching (kāyagatāsati; asubha is one facet) found in SN/SA suttas?

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This teaching is found in MN 119. I presume SN is the Samyutta, but I don’t know what SA refers to.

In this thread, I think Viveka’s post is the most pertinent. She has practised a lot of asubha in the recent past and has generously shared the insights (right view) resulting from that practice.

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Thanks.

It will be good to notice that the teaching is not found in the core teachings of SN suttas.

SA is Samyukta Agama (a Sarvastivada text in Chinese), another version of SN (Samyutta Nikaya , a Vibhajyavada text in Pali).

See: Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism: A Comparative Study Based on the Sūtrāṅga portion of the Pāli Saṃyutta-Nikāya and the Chinese Saṃyuktāgama (Series: Beitrage zur Indologie Band 32; Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden, 2000).
https://www.academia.edu/12359515/The_F … ukta_agama

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Individuals have different methods of determining what are core teachings

I’m glad that I met with the Dhamma well before the internet age. Using texts available in monasteries, I studied the Dhamma in English & later in Pali. I made handwritten notes and also committed to memory certain Pali suttas & verses. After a while, I realised it wasn’t necessary to study all the teachings and that it was more important to focus on those suttas which were helpful for practice. These were my core teachings.

Buddha taught that personal experience is the gauge to verify teachings, as in this famous example (although maybe you won’t accept it if it is not included in your definition of core teachings)

“Come, Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a collection of scriptures, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’ But when you know for yourselves: ‘These things are wholesome; these things are blameless; these things are praised by the wise; these things, if accepted and undertaken, lead to welfare and happiness,’ then you should live in accordance with them" SuttaCentral

Study of the teachings can be endless, but the path of practice leads to an end. In this digital age, study can also be confusing - too much information :slightly_smiling_face:

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So, you consider that asubha practice is the core teaching of the Dhamma based on your “personal experience”?

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Nowhere have I stated that asubha is the core teaching of the Buddha - either according to texts or according to practice.

Asubha is just one mode of kāyagatāsati (others being mindfulness of breathing, four elements, postures etc.). Buddha stressed the importance of practicing kāyagatāsati for the realization of the deathless. This makes a lot of sense is you think about it as there is so much attachment, delusion & wrong view connected with the body.

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Good to know that.

So, asubha is an “important” practice but not the “core teaching” of the Buddha?

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AN 4.163: This sutta describes the four ways of practice as painful practice with slow insight, painful practice with swift insight, pleasant practice with slow insight, and pleasant practice with swift insight. It specifically mentions the practice of meditating on the ugliness of the body, perceiving the repulsiveness of food, perceiving dissatisfaction with the whole world, and observing the impermanence of all conditions.
The contemplation of the ugliness of the body can be categorized as a painful practice. Of course, it belongs to the core teachings of the Buddha.

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It is not the core teaching but it is certainly included in core teachings, as is any teaching which cultivates clear vision, dispassion, tranquility and leads to liberation.

However, it may be the core practice of some meditators, esp. in forest traditions. In the Theravada ordination procedure, every new monk is taught five basic meditation objects that form the basis for contemplation of the body: hair of the head (kesa), hair of the body (loma), nails (nakha), teeth (danta), and skin (taco).

Buddha’s core teaching (Dhammcakkapavattana Sutta) is the Four Noble Truths:
=> Fourth Noble Truth: Noble Eightfold Path
=> Noble Eightfold Path’s seventh limb: Sammāsati
=> Sammāsati: Four Satipatthāna
=> First Satipatthāna: Kāyānupassanā
=> Kāyānupassanā: mindfulness of breathing, clear comprehension, postures, four elements, thirty two bodily parts (asubha) and the cemetery contemplations.

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Which sutta/s you refer to? Do you refer to MN 119?

But these teachings regarding Sati-patthana are not entirely found in SN/SA suttas.

Cf.:Who is the best teacher on Samatha and Vipassana meditation? - #2 by thomaslaw

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The end point of foulness is Nibbana, when combined with Right View and the other path factors.

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Coming at this from a Sarvāstivādin POV, who seemed to focus on this more than say Theravāda, I recommend Ven. Dhammajoti’s paper “Meditative Experiences of Impurity and Purity—Further Reflection on the as ́ubha ̄ Meditation and the s ́ubha-vimoks.” found here: Religions | Free Full-Text | Meditative Experiences of Impurity and Purity—Further Reflection on the aśubhā Meditation and the śubha-vimokṣa

A must read on the topic IMO for any well informed Buddhist.

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This conversation has become circular :o:

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And? The problem here is?

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So, you in fact consider that asubha practice is the core teaching of the Dhamma based on your “personal experience”?

Cf.:

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It is important to note that the Chinese iddhipāda-samyutta was lost, and therefore we can only rely on the Pāli iddhipāda-samyutta for an idea of the core teachings found there. But the iddhipādas are considered a core of the sutra-anga in the theoretical ‘samyutta-kathā.’ So the fact that they are not currently available in Chinese does not mean they weren’t important. I will not reference this because I am certain you are aware of it.

In the Iddhipāda-samyutta, we have the vibhanga for the four iddhipādas that defines and describes their practice. Here is an excerpt:

It’s when a mendicant develops the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to enthusiasm, and active effort.
They think: ‘My enthusiasm won’t be too lax or too tense. And it’ll be neither constricted internally nor scattered externally.’ And they meditate perceiving continuity:
as before, so after; as after, so before;
as below, so above; as above, so below;
as by day, so by night; as by night, so by day.
…
And how does a mendicant meditate as below, so above; as above, so below?
It’s when a mendicant examines their own body up from the soles of the feet and down from the tips of the hairs, wrapped in skin and full of many kinds of filth. ‘In this body there is head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, snot, synovial fluid, urine.’
SN 51.20

So this is the passage describing the meditation on the parts of the body, which it says is what ‘as above, so below’ (yathā adho tathā uddhaṁ, yathā uddhaṁ tathā adho) refers to. Note that this refrain is mentioned in the standard full description of the iddhipādas elsewhere (e.g. SN 51.11, 51.12, 51.14, etc.). In comparing the parallels to MN 10, the body parts is also the only practice that is in common across all Satipatthana compilations of all traditions, including extracts found in Abhidharma analyses. This means that outside of SN/SA, it is the standard example of ‘kāyānupassanā’ across all schools of Early Buddhism.

The phrase ‘kāye kāyānupassī viharati’ is never analyzed further within the SN/SA collections outside the context of ānāpānasati. If the satipatthānā only refer to ānāpānasati, it would be strange for them to be something that mindfulness of breathing “fullfills” or for them to be a separate samyutta and category all together. It seems that the satipatthānā must be a larger, more general framework for sammāsati, and ānāpānasati is a prime example of a way of fulfilling them.

So then we can ask: does contemplating the body parts match with observing the body / an aspect of the body? Well, of course. They are called ‘body parts’ in English precisely because these are merely aspects of the larger body, just as breath is an aspect of the body. So maintaining proper remembrance and sustained awareness of them would be an example of ‘kāyānupassanā.’

But maybe that’s not convincing to you. Well then, we can look outside of these two samyuttas to one that does have a Chinese parallel: SN 35.127 (SĀ 1165). Here, there is an explicit description of this practice in common across parallels and found in the sūtra-anga of the SN/SA (salāyatana-samyutta), therefore qualifying it as a part of the “core collection” of the SN/SA in Early Buddhism. I paste the relevant Chinese below:

尊者賓頭盧語婆蹉王優陀延那：「更有因緣，如世尊說，如來、應、等正覺所知所見，為比丘說：『此身從足至頂，骨幹肉塗，覆以薄皮，種種不淨充滿其中；周遍觀察，髮、毛、爪、齒、塵垢、流唌、皮、肉、白骨、筋、脈、心、肝、肺、脾、腎、腸、肚、生藏、熟藏、胞、淚、汗、涕、沫、肪、脂、髓、痰、癊、膿、血、腦、汁、屎、溺。』大王！此因此緣故，年少比丘於此法、律，出家未久，安隱樂住，乃至純一滿淨。」

And the Pāli:

“Vuttaṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, tena bhagavatā jānatā passatā arahatā sammāsambuddhena: ‘etha tumhe, bhikkhave, imameva kāyaṁ uddhaṁ pādatalā adho kesamatthakā tacapariyantaṁ pūraṁ nānappakārassa asucino paccavekkhatha—atthi imasmiṁ kāye kesā lomā nakhā dantā taco maṁsaṁ nhāru aṭṭhi aṭṭhimiñjaṁ vakkaṁ hadayaṁ yakanaṁ kilomakaṁ pihakaṁ papphāsaṁ antaṁ antaguṇaṁ udariyaṁ karīsaṁ pittaṁ semhaṁ pubbo lohitaṁ sedo medo assu vasā kheḷo siṅghāṇikā lasikā muttan’ti

Hope that’s helpful.

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Asubha practice is certainly found in the sutra-anga of SN/SA. However, the practice is not included in the notion of ‘right view’ in terms of the so-called seeing-knowing ‘things as they really are’:

Also, all the nine progressive stages of meditation (i.e. the 4 rūpas, 4 arūpas, and the cessation of perception-and-feeling ‘saññā-vedayita-nirodha’) are the results of mental projection (saṅkhārā). Only the ‘cessation of desire-hatred-delusion’ is based on true insight of the real world (i.e. ‘right view’):

So, asubha practice is not the core teachings of SN/SA.

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I agree, of course, that reviewing the body parts is part of sammāsati, and is not equivalent to attaining liberation. But it is a factor leading to that, and when practiced properly with the other aspects of the path, it can be the impetus for liberation.

You seem to be equating “core teachings” with “must be equivalent to an explanation of right view.” Right view is only one aspect of the noble eightfold path, and in order to ‘see things truly’ one must develop sammāsati. One example of sammāsati is asubha practice.

Asubha practice (which I prefer to call by a more neutral term like ‘mindfulness of bodily parts’ or something along those lines) can be used to develop and actualize the four noble truths and realize them via contemplating anicca/dukkha/anattā as per the SN/SA teachings. How? -

One is contemplating the body to understand how it is ultimately not desirable (i.e. dukkha) and relinquish attachment and craving to it (i.e. nirodha). One applies right view (framework of the four noble truths) to establish sīla, and cultivate right effort and right mindfulness via body-part meditation to develop right samādhi (i.e. magga) and therefore extinguish greed hatred and delusion. So using the 8fold path to understand dukkha, the arising and realize cessation via contemplating the body is certainly a part of the path to liberation in the SN/SA scheme.

The only objection here is to say that body-contemplation does not cover understanding the other aggregates of vedanā, saññā, sankhārā and viññāna. But the process of developing right effort, sati, and samādhi involves an interconnected body-mind process which leads to an understanding of how these all relate. Properly cultivating satipatthānā, starting with body-part contemplation will lead through to the other applications of mindfulness as well.
Also, by understanding the nature of primarily one aggregate (here, rūpa) within the framework of the whole 8ofld path and four noble truths, one is able to penetrate into the nature of all the aggregates and understand their equivalent nature, arising, and ceasing. This fulfills right view and the whole path for liberation.

So, in short, if “core teaching” means “definition of right view,” then sure, asubha is not a “definition of right view.” But a definition of right view is far from the core of Buddhist practice. It is one crucial component, out of which other core practices (like body contemplation) stem. To my mind, the value in this conversation is mainly for others to see and contemplate for their own practice. You may not personally be convinced, but I hope the dialogue is of real benefit to some.

All the best.

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