Even more terms

[Brahmali]

@sujato

@sujato

But tathāgata is explained by the Buddha in the suttas

Bhante, do you have reference for this?

@sujato

The reason I chose “holy one” was because I didn’t want to overly secularize the term.

Ok, but “holy” has so much baggage. I think secularisation is ok, because we are dealing with something completely different from Western religion. Or we should use more universally acceptable “spiritual” terms.

@rudite
Yes, I did actually consider this myself. But I wondering if it is too broad and general, and therefore doesn’t convey much meaning.

@Linda

@Linda

First I have to say that I’m partial to using translations that retain some of the Pali etymology if possible.

I have to confess I am less and less inclined to rely on etymology. Once you look up the etymology of words in a language you know well, it quickly becomes clear that the distance between the origin of a word and how it is used contemporarily can be vast. The best way to gauge the meaning of a word is context, and the best dictionaries, such as OED and the Critical Pali Dictionary, are written on this basis. However, if no other information is available, then etymology may at least provide some information about a word.

@Linda

Actually when I started to read the suttas, BB’s translations, and encountered words that were not translated, that’s when I started getting a much clearer sense of the teachings. For me it actually cleared up a lot of things!

I actually agree with this, but I believe it takes a a particular kind of personality. I happen to know lots of people, especially those who use English as a second language, who have given up on reading the suttas because they find it too hard.

@Linda

In terms of ‘fortunate’, I do not equate this word to ‘lucky’.

I understand you point , because this word is multifaceted. The problem is that it also includes the meaning luck, and I think many people may read it in this way.

@Linda

And of course, as you say, the texts talk about ‘fortunate’ rebirths, etc., nothing to do with chance.

Right, and that’s exactly why I would prefer to avoid “fortunate” also in this case.

Thanks for your generous feedback!

@anon29387788

@anon29387788

So I don’t think Sugata or Tathagata should be translated as the Buddha…because it is the shades of different meaning in these words that point to truths that we’re all trying to comprehend

Yes, that’s pretty much what I was thinking.

@anon29387788

Perhaps leaving such a word untranslated and providing a discussion of it’s meaning somewhere is the best that can be done…?

Well, as Bhante Sujato has pointed out, this is difficult to do with an online text. People are unlikely to be reading the suttas in any particular order, and so there is no natural place to put such an explanation. I think a translation that captures the meaning in an approximate way is better than leaving it untranslated.

@sylvester
I dont’ t really agree with Gombrich on this. The Buddha discusses the nature of arahantship in many ways, and so I doubt he uses Tathāgata because he is incapable of describing what he has achieved. In any case, if Bhante Sujato is right and tathā unambiguously refers to “truth”, then the problem is solved.