Explaining sankhāra="choices"

This is more what I was thinking when using the term free will - the ability to be aware and make a choice based on memory and awareness to direct one’s life and thought.

It still may not be valid which is okay. Choices is still a bit confusing in how I can integrate this into my practice. Would it be best to view it as, “I have the ability to make choices and those choices are not self and so attachment to one’s choices creates suffering?” Or, is it, “The mind makes choices without volition and these choices are not to be considered self?”

When I viewed this aggregate as “mental formations” it made more sense to me in my mind and yet from what I’m hearing, this is not the correct view. It is super important that I understand fully the five aggregates so I can correct my view and use it in meditation. I am not struggling with my meditation, but it would be nice to be able to have a proper understanding .

With Metta,

Ami

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Dear Ami, I completely share this desire!
I am no expert in any of this, and have no definitive answers - but what has been working for me is to just trust the process - all the processes, and to be patient. I’m just focusing on putting as many causes into place to support practice, trusting that sooner or later deeper understanding will be a natural consequence. While it would be nice to have all the knowledge of the Buddha… I strongly suspect that will never happen (over all lifetimes), even if one attains liberation. So I’m just going with the flow and not stressing. Until I have personal experience of things as they truly are (freedom from all delusion), I’m happy to have no definitive/fixed view, and just inclinations in particular directions.

It seems I’m not able to express myself very clearly or succinctly today …

I’ve had to fight my desire for certainty and control, every step of the way since I’ve committed to follow the path. - so I continually use this stuff as the material to be contemplated… Why is it super important? What would happen if one doesn’t know? etc etc. I find it too easy to become entangled with my own mind-made scenarios (sankharas) and feed/feed off the intellect. I’ve actually found it very freeing to stop looking for right and wrong (even in EBT’s) - this in turn makes samadhi so much easier > more insights generated > less investment in identity/self.

Please ignore what I’ve related above, if it appears too naive or doesn’t resonate. It’s offered only just in case it may be useful.

Best wishes for your journey :anjal::dharmawheel:

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The discussion on the meaning and purport of sankhara has revealed a number of important facts; not only the uncertainty regarding its exact or precise meaning, but also the problematicity of “intention” or “volition” as possible meanings of it, in the context of a Buddhist perspective on free-will. Discussion has further revealed that there is ambiguity regarding that very Buddhist view on free-will itself, which is quite an important matter, because confusion about this issue can easily give rise to doubts about Dhamma, or misunderstanding Dhamma or confusing it with nihilist or fatalist views (where human action is entirely predetermined). This perhaps warrants a discussion in another thread.

Some have approached this discussion concerning the meaning of sankhara with certitude about its purport, others, myself included, with uncertainty and curiosity, and doubts regarding the proposed meaning. It is noteworthy, however, that uncertainty here is not founded on delusional or sceptical obsessions, but rather on the fact that there are amble occasions in the Pali text where sankhara couldn’t possibly be a reference to intention, volition, action, choices, or any such like meaning; and further on the fact that other connotations of sankhara, such as those referring to conditional productivity and functionality in the most generic sense, seem to present a more convincing meaning particularly in the context of the paticcasamuppada, just as it does in so many other contexts across the suttas, including in verse.

Further, the function of “volition” or “intention” in the context of the paticcasamuppada (as that which begets further existence and, hence, consciousness) is highly questionable, especially given that this makes it identical with “bhava”, which appears later in the 12 links and is represented as the most direct precursor of the cycle of life and death (rebirth). Whether it is indeed the case that consciousness is produced specifically, fundamentally, or solely from a process of potent intention (rather than the exact opposite!), is a question that should be considered; and there are further questions regarding the psychological significance of “intention” in general, within the context of a Buddhist psychology. But you will agree that the investigation and discussion of all of this immediately places one in the realm of abstract conceptualisation and speculation rather than retain one in the realm of direct observation and intuitive awareness; all of which seem characteristic, in my humble view, of an Abhidharmic influence, and at the very least makes the occasion for uncertainty and agnosticism, if not even nonchalance, valid and ripe! This is so because, ultimately, what sankhara could mean in the Pali text, or in doctrinal terms, should not be a concern that exercises a significant influence on one’s actual Dhamma experience and practice, and there’s much wisdom in wearing the gloves of dispassion before handling this old dusty thicket, lest one be stung by bees and bitten by snakes.

The various meanings of sankhara are discussed in several commentaries, and some of these meanings (and interpretations) have gained prominence over others in the course of time. However I believe that those meanings were not discussed well enough! As I mentioned earlier, there is poverty of discussion regarding doctrinal concerns in our Theravada tradition, which so happens to be the one tradition most closely connected with the foundation, the base, or the “original” teaching, which is now preserved only in the Pali text. Relying predominantly (if not solely) on linguistic methods to grasp the meaning of spiritual or transcendental teachings is, it appears quite clearly to me, rather inadequate and ineffective, if not even misleading - this has been one of the main reasons behind the poverty of discussion and debate over doctrinal concerns in our tradition. Debates in other traditions, including those whose text is written in Greek, Latin, or Arabic for example, (languages and literatures which are far more developed than Pali), refer to linguistic methods of analysis with moderation and wisdom, in the course of their pursuit of an interpretive understanding of their old spiritual and philosophical texts. A direct inquiry of the intellectual content of the text itself remains to be the most significant manner through which debate unfolds and leads to the generation of understanding, and there is a tendency of those who rely predominantly on linguistics (or on authoritative interpretations) to develop their understanding into an increasingly dogmatic form, which later manifests in condescension in relation to novel ideas (or revived ideas), aversion to opposition, and intolerance of debate. This is a historical pattern, and one of its direct effects is, secterianism, as those giving expression to doubt or presenting alternative views, especially about important or fundamental doctrinal principles, become exorcised and branded as delusional and heretical, etc. Though many are those who believe that the danger of debate lies in its potential to give rise to sectarianism, history suggests, and demonstrates, that the opposite is the case! Thus it is only fortunate for us that all Buddhist teachings point to the importance of being able to think freely and independently. From that very fortunate situation we can surely embark on creating and joining an inclusionist culture of tolerant debate and non-violent communication, even in the event where we have continued to disagree on the purport of “sankhara” or failed in pinning it down in unison.

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All of the above if correct.

Consider that we are made up of atoms- can atoms make choices? Yet on a macro level, we can make choices. Both of the statements you made are valid, in their own domains (conventional and ultimate or to be more EBT-like, ignorance and insight).

Free will is important in Western culture. The free will issue never arose in the East, as Christianity was introduced late. So in the East people are quite relaxed re whether there is free will or not- they just go about doing their daily things.

Anatta could be thought of as nihilist. Causality could be thought of as fatalist- these are just wrong perceptions. Seeing through the illusion of something which was never there in the first place is a movement from ignorance to insight.

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I think it’s super important because this is the foundation of the Buddha’s teachings and it’s of utmost importance to have clear comprehension to inform my practice.

With Metta,

Ami

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Also, without seeing self in what is not-self (or in-control, when there is only causality) we will think we can own and chart our future samsaric journey with certainty. Letting go at the deepest levels require removal of ignorance, not just stopping craving from arising (samatha). Understanding the dhamma (hearing/reading and contemplating -yonisomanasikara) gives rise to Right view, without which the noble eightfold path won’t result in nibbana.

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Yes of course, but we do need to have a clear explanation, that is congruent with the Buddha’s intention, without conflicting ideas of what such a foundational term “sankhara” means.

With Metta,

Ami

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I have a very simple rule - when in doubt go back to the basics :slight_smile:

This is especially true when mind gets over involved, when thoughts take over and build more and more elaborate structures. Then views evolve etc etc and suffering follows.

I may well be called a heretic for this :rofl: but… The Buddha actually said that the entire teaching, and ‘foundation’ is within the 4 Noble Truths. So to me… this is back to basics. Investigation of what causes suffering. So in regards to this exchange, it is rich in opportunity to examine what causes suffering. Desire for certainty.

:anjal::dharmawheel:

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Whether looking at this question from a scientific perspective or a Buddhist perspective, this question is irrelevant. Science is rife with “emergent phenomena” - where the characteristics of a complex macro-structure are quite different from the micro-scale component parts.

From a Buddhist perspective, atoms are rupa. Saṅkhāra is a different one of the five aggregates.

My own accommodation of the four aggregates other than rupa - as an empirical model of emergent psychological phenomena that is both simple and functional enough to be used as a basis for ethical living.

I have just two brief comments on some of the above.

  1. Employment of the mere concept of choice does not in itself entail a commitment to any view on freedom or free will. Whatever view one takes on whether choices are “free” in some deep sense, or are rigorously determined by the course of nature, it’s obvious that choices occur. If I’m trying to decide what to watch on television, and I pick a show, then obviously I made a choice, even if one thinks some causal antecedents determined what choice that would be.

  2. It seems to me “volitional activity” or “volitional formations” is still a better translation for “sankharas”, because “choice” always connotes the selection from a group of options, wheras the Buddhist concept, as I understand it, only refers to activity performed under the direction of the will, whether or not there is any important deliberating and selecting going on.

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Causality is at the root of suffering as causes and hence, their effects, are impermanent and therefore unsatisfactory and therefore not self. This is the first noble truth.

The implications of this can be determined- for example nothing called ‘mine’ can exist, due to this or that samsaric existence is bound up with suffering due to this, etc. Free will is yet another casualty. This of course doesn’t mean there is no means to direct one’s choices - attakari sutta(?) where the Buddha discusses this very issue.

That is a philosophical construct- the dhamma is experiential. You are able to see how consciousnesses arises from rupa, for example the eye :eye: and the image, in a causally generated way - it’s not a View. It’s not in Meat-space but rather in deep experience of vipassana, without making it too complicated.

But the emergent consciousness idea is more about evolution I believe, and is useful as a simile, to explain causal chains but isn’t the real dhamma as the simile is limilted- the consciousness then operates as a self extant entity- in Buddhism it’s generated afresh every moment a sense base is stimulated.

When a leg is lifted (walking meditation) the intention to lift it precedes the action- we can see how this intention is preceded by other causes which gives rise to it. The automatic action of causes and effect (or causes and choices) are apparent, especially when speeded up. Seeing the end of the walking meditation track gives rise to the intention to turn, and so on.

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Hi All,

I was talking with a Dhamma friend today, discussing the word Sankhara and something came to me. Let me know if this seems like a correct postulation.

I was thinking about this Choices word for Sankhara and talking about it’s use in the 5 aggregates and I noticed it seems like it is a mini version of dependent origination.

Body has contact with a sense sphere object =>
Body has a feeling =>
The mind has a perception of liking or disliking (aka craving) =>
The perception leads to a choice whether to pursue or ignore this formation of the mind (aka clinging) =>
Rebirth into consciousness is created as a result of the process.

Is this right?

It seems the Buddha made these lists in order. For example, the 7 factors of awakening are obviously relevant to the progress to Jhana and the 4 Jhanas.

Sati (needed to generate awareness of an object and come back to it)
Dhama-Vicaya (is investigating the meditation topic aka the reality of the moment)
Viriya (energy is needed to stay with the object of investigation and bring the sati back)
Piti (Pleasant bodily feeling arises which keeps one connected with the sati and also fueling Viriya and Dhama-Vicaya - 1st Jhana)
Passaddhi (Tranquility of Sukkha taking over and moving into the foreground - 2nd Jhana)
Samadhi (3rd Jhana total absorption with no more disturbance from the Piti)
Uppekha (Complete consummation of Equanimity in the 4th Jhana)

Bhante @sujato I’m curious if I’m getting closer to following what Sankhara means and if not I’d appreciate your patience and Metta in helping me get closer.

With Metta,

Ami

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This echo’s my own understanding… and that everything humans can perceive or conceive is subject to this > causes and conditions, ie the effect is dependent on preceding factors regarding every single thing, and on a variety of scales. This is a natural process, which does away with magical thinking or acts of ‘god’ as well as illustrating that there is no ‘self’ in control of things. :smiley:
(note this is just my personal ‘current’ understanding, and I’m not claiming it to be “correct” :slight_smile:

:anjal::dharmawheel:

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Yep. AN6.38:

https://suttacentral.net/an6.38/en/sujato

:anjal:

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Ahh, indeed! These teachings all overlap in fascinating ways.

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Do not say that Viveka, do not say that. Good spiritual friendship is all of the holy life. :wink:

:slightly_smiling_face: I’m afraid I don’t really understand your comment :slightly_smiling_face:

Certainly

is wonderful. I suppose in the text you quoted, I’d class this as one of the “external things”. If one is lucky enough to have Kalyana Mittas or to meet good teachers, this is a real gift with regards to understanding the Dhamma and to following the Noble 8 fold path.

Metta

Oh sorry. :blush: It was a parody of SN45.2 where Ananda suggests that half of the holy life is “good spiritual friendship” thereby implying that there are other things involved, and the Buddha corrects him to say the whole of the holy life is good spiritual friendship - that’s all that is required to fulfill the path. There was a smiley winking face there because (for me) all those other things that you mention in the quote come from good spiritual friendship too. The problem is that many of us, for much of the time, think those things come from us or belong to us. They don’t. We don’t do the path, our teachers do our path. Their path was done by their teachers. All we need to do is to get out of their way. But that’s just the way I see it. Sorry for my confusing start.

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After chewing on all this for a while, I think my new personal translation for saṇkhāra is “activity.”

  • “Ignorance conditions activity, activity conditions consciousness…”
  • “Form, feelings, perceptions, activity, and consciousness”
  • “All activity is stressful”

To me “activity” beautifully mirrors the connection to kamma past and present, but also describes saṃsāra. What is saṃsāra other than just a bunch of activity?

So happy to feel like I finally “get it” after many years of struggling with “conditional formations” :joy: Now I just have to tame my “activity” :slight_smile: Somehow that feels much more doable

Thank you Ajahn Sujato and Ajahn Brahmali for the fascinating scholarship and thanks for inviting us plebs along for the journey :pray:

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This sounds like a ‘physical’ activity to me, rather than a mental component.