I can recall very clearly
Because there are many of these snakes where I live - daily encounters during summer, I am used to being very mindful, and scanning is automatic.
This shock occurred, because there was, as you say, a break in mindfulness of this issue. So my mind had registered - no snake (very well camoflaged). Then I had my attention focus elsewhere, up at a tree, while I took 2-3 small steps. It was only a subconscious response to movement in peripheral vision, that caused me to look down. And there about 18 inches from my calf, was the snake in striking position. So I literally jumped backwards, as an automatic response, barely as I had cognised the situation - literally leaving one of my slip on shoes in situ So it was this going from 0 danger to 100 danger, it lead to survival responses and the adrenaline spike to go with it. So with regard to
It happened so quick, that the response had begun well before any ‘intention’ had formed. In this sense, it is a survival response that cuts out thinking… ?? Need to go into neuro-psychology to get more accurate descriptions, re instinctual survival reactions
Usually, I see the snakes before it is so perilous, and watch with awareness and calm.
This is the most dangerous encounter I’ve ever had I think… it was because the snake was ‘restrained’ and didn’t bite, that it turned out ok… But I think this is probably the same snake that has lived under the bungalow for years, but just basking in some late afternoon sunshine in a different place. We have a respectful relationship, when we pass each other within a normal routine,.
Regarding ‘intention’, I would then ask this. Was the action intentional or conditioned?
When we are walking a narrow mountain path where every step is taken with care, jumping in any direction when seeing a snake is … undesirable. I propose, from my own experience, that our responses to snakes would alter. We would not startle and jump, for to do so on a mountain path would simply precipitate a certain death of a different kind. Instead, I propose that we would all behave slightly differently according to circumstance. I propose that, despite the appearance of instinctive reaction, that we would intuitively and mindfully adapt our response effortlessly and immediately to mitigate all dangers skillfully. Without thinking, yet with awareness, we would act appropriately. There is a gray zone here. It’s not as simple as “see snake jump”.
Agreed. But sometimes the threat of the snake may be overwhelming regardless of other dangers. Stepping back abruptly and losing a shoe in snake country might easily land you on another snake, but no consideration was given to this by the instinctual mind of @Viveka
Also I think that we can recondition our response (by training) to be one that is generally more appropriate. So potentially an appropriate response is to slow down and spread loving kindness to the snake when we are shocked by the perception of its form and movement rather than allowing the ‘instinctual’ response of jumping back. But this has to be conditioned over a long period of time.
What I find fascinating is that the more I meditate, the more awareness infuses that “instinctual mind”. What may have started out as a biological conditioned response evolves into a state of present awareness without thinking. In other words, that training isn’t just programming a new reaction (e.g., “see snake step back”). Instead, the training/meditation/sati fosters insight that manifests as aware and skillful action. Indeed, I believe Viveka will not react exactly the same when she sees the next snake. The shock will be less, and the reaction more skillful. There will, more importantly, be no thinking about “I see a snake. What should I do? Maybe I should stop. Maybe I should jump.” Instead, Viveka will react just as swiftly as she did but with less shock and more skill.
The reason I make this distinction between instinctual and skillful response is that I’ve found that we can choose to treat ourselves as reactive beings (e.g., “see snake jump left”) or we can treat ourselves as sentient beings (e.g., “thank you snake for not killing this body”) in our daily life. In the first case we ask ourselves to always do X when Y happens. In the second case, the mindful/sati case, when Y happens, our responses are skillful and well-suited to circumstance. In both cases, there is action without deliberation, without thinking.
Because of this, I question the distinctions we typically draw between instinctual, thinking and aware behavior. We tend to conflate awareness with thinking. Yet they are different. Awareness does not require thinking. Yet we harbor in our identity views an illusion, an illusion that thinking is awareness.
“Contact, mendicants, is one end. The origin of contact is the second end. The cessation of contact is the middle. And craving is the seamstress,
for craving weaves one to rebirth in this or that state of existence.
That’s how a mendicant directly knows what should be directly known and completely understands what should be completely understood. Knowing and understanding thus they make an end of suffering in this very life.”
–AN6.61
For me ‘present awareness without thinking’ is just another biological conditioned response. It’s a response caused by the path, but it’s still conditioned (as opposed to unconditioned).
Yes, I very much agree it is conditioned. The Noble Eightfold Path is conditioned (MN44), so our practice does indeed condition us.
And have you noticed the difference in yourself between reactive conditioning and aware conditioning? One craves an outcome, whereas the other does not.
Well guys, theory is one thing… I have to say that I disagree that you could condition away the instinctual reaction in the circumstances I described, and neither would one want to. This is like un-training something that is beneficial that our biological bodies offer us.
I have lived in this environment for 20 years. This was an exceptional set of circumstances, and the reaction was perfect. Now when I first arrived I would have this reaction in all circumstances upon seeing a snake. But having done snake handling course, and having re-conditioned myself, exactly as @stu suggested, the un-necessary fear of snakes was eradicated. I co-exist with them, and just altered my behaviour so that we can co-exist in this environment. I often sit quietly and observe them with joy and metta
However, I think that while still alive in a vulnerable human body, that to go to the lengths to sever ‘contact’ with lethal circumstances is not wise… if one is burning - withdraw the hand from the fire. If a snake is in the process of striking - jump back. Though I’m sure the calculations done in the mind would have taken into consideration the circumstances if one were on a cliff.
There is one circumstance that I can think of that would be different in mental processing. That is where one is set up for the task, eg some specific challenge. When and if aware, that this circumstance is imminent and one is primed to control ones instincts, then I think it is absolutely possible. And actually this is what I did, in my initial stages of de-sensitisation to the fear of snakes. So I would watch them from a safe distance, and observe what my adrenalin, etc were doing. In effect mindfulness of body, feelings and thoughts and craving for actions/aversion and escape. So this is like an extended version of cognitive behavioural therapy… Though to enhance it using the Buddhas methodology it involves deeper investigation; moving back and inside, looking for the genesis of the conditioning re fear of snakes, it was easy to find the indoctrinated attitudes and all the ‘stories’ one had absorbed… but that pure instinctual level… as far as i could tell that was way to deep (multiple lifetimes) to be accessible - for me at least
I have to say I am perfectly content with the work I’ve done on examining my conditioning with regard to snakes. Having actively trained away those aspects that I saw as un-beneficial, I am content to let the instinctual survival response remain intact.
Anyway - good luck, and may you be free from suffering
Following up on Ven. Khemarato’s suggestion, I’ve been listening to this book with interest…and…
I was quite startled to hear the term “flow” from Daniel Kanehman, since I’ve heard and used it as well. Essentially, flow bridges Fast and sLOW effortlessly melding awareness, intuition, perception, consideration and action. This makes sense to me since flow is … immersive. It is exactly the term I was struggling for earlier in this thread.
The question that arises is this.
How does flow handle danger perceived?
I am inclined to think that flow handles danger effortlessly and without shock…that flow, being immersive, results in the following experience:
When this immersion is well developed and cultivated in this way, wherever you walk, you’ll walk comfortably. Wherever you stand, you’ll stand comfortably. Wherever you sit, you’ll sit comfortably. Wherever you lie down, you’ll lie down comfortably.” -AN8.63
However, whether a stimulus is perceived as a threat is itself a conditioned (and thus hackable) factor.
For example, an alarm going off can break your concentration if you’re e.g. playing the violin or coding, but if you’re baking a cake, that alarm may be a ready-to-hand part of your baking equipment: not only not an interuption, but a contribution to your flow.
So, in order to make immersion “uninterruptible” (“well developed and cultivated”) your concentration must take all six senses as the objects of work.
In this way, when a potentially-threatening (“pleasant, painful, or neither-pleasant-nor-painful”) sound, sight, etc enters the field of awareness, instead of being perceived as an interuption to the task-at-hand, the stimulus instead becomes just another part-of-the-work.
Of course, achieving this is extraordinarily difficult! This is why many meditation teachers start with small, stable objects or areas of concentration: the tip of the nose, a mantra, a visualization, etc. Once you get a taste for flow, and start to establish it throughout your day (“from the moment you get up to the moment you go to sleep” as my teacher likes to say) you slowly start to use your mindfulness to pull more and more of your experience back into the meditation: experiencing fewer and fewer events as “distractions” until your flow becomes limitless. And then you’re getting somewhere!
This is the bit I was trying to communicate. Then it is a matter of working on conditioning of ‘the perception of danger’ and ensuring that it is set at its most ‘beneficial’ depending on goals and aims.
There are of course the stories of immersion being so deep, that a meditator can withstand the effects of flood or fire… etc… I’m happy to leave these as stories
Got to love playing with the brain and conditioning
That’s right. But it’s not flood or fires that can harm you nearly so much as an unrestrained mind:
Whatever harm an enemy may do to an enemy, or a hater to a hater, an ill-directed mind inflicts on oneself a greater harm.
~ Dhp 42
Neither in the sky nor in mid-ocean, nor by entering into mountain clefts, nowhere in the world is there a place where one may escape the results of evil deeds.
~ Dhp 127
Sure. “Flōwan” even existed in Old English, from “flouwen” in Old High German, from the PIE root “pleu” in truly ancient times (from whence the Pali plava also comes?)
But Karl was quoting Kanehman, who was explicitly referencing Csikszentmihalyi.
I don’t know either. Could flow be (8 fold path) samadhi rather than sati? Or could it be samadhi in the more general sense (the 3 meditative bits of the 8 fold path)?
So it was this going from 0 danger to 100 danger, it lead to survival responses and the adrenaline spike to go with it. So with regard to
Well guys, theory is one thing… I have to say that I disagree that you could condition away the instinctual reaction in the circumstances I described, and neither would one want to. This is like un-training something that is beneficial that our biological bodies offer us.
And a few of us keen students 
I’m a bit confused Bhante. What’s the difference between mindfulness and flow? And what would be the best Pali word for flow?