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Thanks to my experience with Catholic priests, monks and nuns when I grew up, I have developed, what I call, a healthy mistrust of anybody wearing robes.
Which means I only give respect after having experienced that the person deserves my respect. And I keep checking that this respect is still due by monitoring the person attitude, speech, etc…
Reading Banthe Dhammika book makes me realise that my approach is sound.
www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berlin.de/downloads/brokenbuddhanew.pdf
Does this mean you disrespect someone until you have found enough evidence this someone deserves your respect? 
There is many shades between respect and disrespect.
[quote=“alaber, post:23, topic:5065, full:true”]
There is many shades between respect and disrespect.
[/quote]Oh definitely, I’ve read many a sarcastic sounding “Bhante” come out of someone who feels they have an ax to grind concerning alleged clericalism in Buddhism. There are many ways to respect and disrespect someone.
But what’s there to loose in giving respect to someone who you’re not yet sure deserves your respect?
And really…doesn’t everyone deserve respect? It seems to me that lack of respect is a big reason people start acting badly in the first place.
In a certain regard I really deeply relate to this (although I have no religious background, and am not quite sure about how much I’d want to link ‘healthy’ and ‘mistrust’) and was so heartened to find the Buddha encouraging folk to closely examine individuals before placing confidence in them.
For me it is helpful to separate out different aspects of respect. On the one hand there is politeness, and (entirely in my own terms) something’s gone horribly wrong if I get to a point of wanting to withhold politeness from anyone. On the other side there’s reverence, and at this point I’m not sure that reverence is something especially voluntary; it strikes me as something that arises on its own accord when there is sufficient trust (or sense of safety) and gladness.
One thing I would say, coming very much from the reverentially-challenged side of life, is that, that kind of respect (that is, the ability to respect someone) appears to be a beautiful gift for those who enjoy it. I believe the Buddha was spot on when he said, “It is painful to dwell without reverence and deference” (SN 6.2, AN 4.21). I certainly know it is a great happiness to me to think of the handful of people I do revere and can but conclude it would be awesome to be able to more readily access that happiness, but again, it doesn’t feel to me to be entirely voluntary.
Interesting point @Aminah. When I look at it for myself in these terms, I think respect is perhaps somewhere between politeness and reverence. It seems it can co-exist with either, but as you imply reverence goes deeper, and automatically includes the other two.
Good post! I feel the same way. There are times when reverence arises towards the Triple Gem or monks or fellow beings on the path. Occasionally it arises somewhat spontaneously but oftentimes it arises when reflecting on the excellence of the teaching or gratitude its many forms. It always comes with a very pleasant feeling. A blameless happiness, methinks.
I don’t believe he is talking about the basic human respect, but that of a superior person. I’ve seen a very devout Sri Lankan person literally talk to a resident(westerner) here at the monastery who called me by my name and say how much bad kamma that is, then she preceded to say that even if the Bhante is berating you and physically beating you, you put your hands in Anjali and say “yes bhante”.
I have no problems with @alaber 's approach, in fact its one I’ve always had myself. I don’t believe, and neither did the buddha ever say, that putting on robes and shaving your head makes you instantly worthy of extra respect. Nor honestly do I believe the common theme of " just becoming a monk means they deserve more respect then lay people", being a monk can be a very good deal, you can sit around being praised and given lots of respect and power and you don’t even really have to work for it, with people literally bowing at your feet, a position all too easy to abuse.
Frankly I know some lay people who are better practitioners then many monks I’ve met. A monastic who is really doing the practice, now that truly is an amazing sight worthy of deep reverence. That being said however I do believe it is important to have deep respect for the monastic sangha in general however, because of the pivitol role they play in keeping the teachings alive, and being good role models for laity in their practice.
So I would say a balanced approach : basic human respect with a balanced attitude of investigation, is perfectly fine, although I’d say also be wary of your intentions, because you can too easily become overly critical of every slight fault, monks are human beings just as anyone else and will not be perfect.
I have the sense that if a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni has ordained, and they carry themselves well within the Vinaya, then they really are deserving of a measure of immediate respect. It’s not easy as a younger person to foresake the experiences of one’s 20’s and 30’s. Accepting the training that involves renunciation of romantic intimacy and partnership with a beloved, renouncing a life that celebrates food, drink, music, and entertainment, is a difficult training path. Living in a community of other renunciates can be difficult, as well, along with the schedules and rituals that fill the days. All of these training rules are difficult, and yet can bring joy and be celebrated, as well.
So, for any man or woman on this Path, just to accept these training rules and to go forth and train in the ancient way is deserving of respect. For those that have accepted this Path, I have enormous respect. For the dodgy monk types, they are usualy not difficult to discern, and while respect may not come to mind immediately, compassion arises for someone who has taken the robes and is unable to appreciate the gift they have accepted. For those monks that have taken robes in order to profiteer, financially or sexually abuse , or otherwise misuse their position for personal gain, well, they need to be reported and perhaps forcibly disrobed.
With equanimity, if not compassion.
Here are my spectrums: metta, politeness, friendliness, love.
Respect, admiration, veneration, devotion
‘Healthy disbelief’, belief, trust, faith
I’m a little slow to catch up on this thread but it’s Vesak week and I’ve been a busy anagarika.
In the last 5 months I’m asked almost daily ‘what should we/I call you’. I started with the Pali name my teacher gave me, but most people weren’t satisfied with that and so I went with ‘Sister’ which at first made me cringe as it reminded me of old matronly sisters. Now I just think of it as sisters in dhamma. Today the senior Sri Lankan monk who we generally call just ‘Bhante’, or casually and affectionately ‘little Bhante’ (even though he’s senior) fumbled around with what my title was as he didn’t like Sister. So he decided Anagarika Pasanna was acceptable.
His Sri Lankan supporters all call him either ‘Swami’, or ‘Thero’ (in the way monks with more that 10 vasa are Ajahn) even though he has 36 rains.
The honorific Ayya seems more confusing than it might seem. Apparently ?some? of the Californian nuns aren’t called Ayya until they are Bhikkhuni and remain sister as a novice. In Western Australia the nuns prefer ‘venerable’ to ‘Ayya’ with one of them saying she though Ayya was only for the most senior nun, were as at another nuns monastery here every nun is called Ayya! Aiyoh! So looping back to the beginning, just ask and go with Venerable in the meantime.
As for respect; I have had many lay devotees bow at my feet as an anagarika. I have absolutely no delusion they’re bowing to me. Many of them have been practicing longer than I’ve been alive. Their respect is for the Buddha’s teachings which are indeed worthy of respect.
I have read this old topic just now and felt very happy with almost every reply in it; i would have said all replies in it had it been not just for one or two comments which seem to promote “suspicion” toward others as if it was a wholesome or worthwhile quality, a position with which I disagree. I believe suspicion is one of the most dangerous and harmful mental states, on both individual and social levels.
Having had much experience as anagarika, hence an unordained person spending most my time resident with monks in Forest monasteries, or visiting other monastic communities here and there; all i wish to share with you is the importance of “being relaxed” and “natural” when you are in the company of monastics, whom ever they may be! We must remember that “respect”, the normal, common sense, everyday life respect, is the only necessary requirement in order for people from whatever backgrounds and of whatever “classes” or categories to come together and contact each other; this is the theme of all civilised societies.
Non of this means that there are no good reasons to develop respect or reverence to monastics, or to make no self-regulating efforts regarding behaviours that are not suitable in a monastery for example. All i’m trying to say is that you shouldn’t “worry” or be “stressed” in the company of monastics because you don’t know what is the proper way to address or approach them, or to satisfy their standards or expectations. And that is the whole point: a mendicant of good heart, who is in it with faith and for a spiritual, non mundane purpose - that mendicant is happy, content, and appreciative of the food and medicine that dispels hunger and illness, the robes which cover the body, and a place to rest and sleep in peace. How to address a mendicant like that, is always “up to you”, whether online or in life. He or she is not in a position to make demands or even grasp on to some expectations in their own hearts about how they should be addressed and treated by others. If anything, a mendicant will be happy and satisfied with not being harmed or humiliated; a sense of urgency fills his or her heart whenever approached respectfully by others who offer anything or ask a question. And a deep and heart-breaking sense of shame will assail him or her should they behold the reverence and faith of others while they know that they have not been doing what they have to do in order to earn this reverence and faith. A mendicant like that will never be offended if you address him or her with “you”, or refer to them by “he” or “she”, or if you call their attention by saying “excuse me” or “hey”! At most they will only recognise that you do not know the cultural jargon or ways; or perhaps that you know them but for one reason or another choose not to follow them. And in both cases, again, they will be content with the fact that you have not harmed or humiliated them with your words or acts, and will be happy if your attitude was respectful and considerate.
At the same time, it is so very easy and simple to very quickly learn everything about bodily deportment and verbal manners, by observing how others do it, or by openly and honestly “ask” when you don’t know what to do (precisely a in this topic!).
Regarding respect: as an unordained person I had the humility to act toward other monks as if they were all ideal, indiscriminately!! Notice that I said “to act” but not yet “to believe or feel”! Two benefits occurred instantly, the most important was that I became free from the burden of suspicion. Secondly, the “bad” monks recognised my uncompromising respect toward them and it actually caused them to be restrained in my presence, or even to completely avoid me!! Thus, saving me from having to be exposed to their idle chatter or other behavioural problems. At the same time, the “good” monks will recognise your respect also and they will develop toward you the exact same appreciation which they would toward another monastic who is respectful and friendly with them! The extra thing that you possess as a lay person is that you can provide such assistance to a monastic that other monastics cannot provide. In many cases this dependence relationship, when done appropriately and in accordance with Dhammavinaya, constitutes a wonderful part of one’s life, for both the monastic and the lay. You can develop memories from such a relationship that will bring tears in your eyes each time they are recalled!
But a relationship of such kind does not arise if you are too much worried or tensed or uncomfortable in the company of monastics, or if you either idealise or look down upon them. Only when you are comfortable and natural, and having a sense of purpose in being with monastics, that you will be able to recognise a good mendicant when you see one, and will then recognise this as a fortunate situation and will wish to use the chance of being around them. And they will spot you too! But when you approach them, then it becomes your turn to be humble and contented with their responses. Some are withdrawn, some are sociable, and some are as much uncomfortable with lay people as some lay people may be with monastics. Some have realised the joy and lightness of renunciation, others are burdened by the nature of the task. Remember that they are not arahants! Just living human beings who with various levels of devotion and determination are applying themselves to the Path and the training, with all its profound difficulties and challenges. So make an effort to understand and accept how they react to you, so long they are in turn respectful toward you. No need to pass judgements here also, and this happens a lot by many lay people, and in many occasions very unfairly. Recognising each others social capacities, preferences, and limitations, we should only help and reinforce each other in getting what each one of us wants. This is what respect really means in my view, rather than being the mere withholding of suspicion or prejudice or contempt toward others, even those whoem we don’t even yet know at all.
Yet I am no idealist; and Dhamma is down-to-earth realism! So I am aware that not everyone is worthy of respect, yet I do not see what is the wisdom in “letting others know” that you don’t have srespect for them! The problem is that, in any specific community (a family, a work environment, a monastery, etc.) there are no options other than “respect” once contact with others occurs; for the intentional withholding of respect is always tantamount to disrespect! It is only because of the ego that we at first find this uncomfortable, even unbearably so: tolerating “difficult” family members, doing things the “wrong way” because this is the vision of the boss at work, or holding the hands in anjali or bowing down, while the heart abstains! But actually this discipline is necessary for the very survival of “decency” in any community (see MN 69 & MN 77). And whether it follows an Asian style or other cultural ways, one must abide by a certain sufficient measure of respect and setting of behavioural boundaries in any community that one freely chooses to belong to. And this is an important factor also; that we can always leave, we can always escape from a community once we no longer find it fair and worthwhile. But that too takes humility! People want to fight for what they think is right; they want to change the way things are. May be so! But if you can’t succeed or if you haven’t got the time; then revolt at your own ego and pride and accept to, escape! I call this method “Respect or Flight!”; it is an unsophisticated alteration of “Fight or Flight”! 
And further, sometimes it is precisely by remaining respectful outwardly and open inwardly even toward “bad” people, that we give them encouragement and hope to change their ways. A time might pass, short or long, before they finally come “to you” before anyone else, either apologising for their acts in the past, or seeking your assistance and advice regarding the future, or both. No one is inherently bad, but all of us are susceptible to times and occasions of weakness and badness! And at times I indeed felt that my enduring respect to a “bad” monks, was more punishing than rewarding to them, as it evoked agony in their sense of conscience! This happens because your respect toward them reminds them of what others expect from them and of the high standards which will always be their duty and purpose.
Sorry for long reply! In conclusion, the key here, which is so much in line with Dhamma, is that we should be concerned about our own sila and inward sense of morality and conscience, than be concerned about those of others. And as a layperson, so long you are respectful and considerate and courteous in a commonly accepted way, and even when you go to visit a monastery which is the home of monastics; (and unless they are doing this for selfless traditoinal educational purposes); a mendicant who pressures or criticises you for not addressing them in a honorific way, or for not bowing to them, or for having not done anything of similar subservient nature; or who presses you or makes you feel uncomfortable over any such issue - this is precisely the kind of monastic that you have every reason not to listen to or learn anything from, or offer your service to! IMHO. And despite of the Buddha’s emphasis on the benefits of reverence, the Buddha himself teaches that the purpose of our practice and exercise of self-descipline and service is to become free, not oppressed:
“I do not say, brahmin, that all are to be served, nor do I say that none are to be served. […] For if, when serving someone, one becomes worse and not better because of that service, then I say that he should not be served. And if, when serving someone, one becomes better and not worse because of that service, then I say that he should be served.” (MN 96).
The Buddha himself extended his forbearance and tolerance even toward those who approached him disrespectfully. How then could it ever be that a follower of the Buddha who has taken but few steps in the Buddha’s Path, should act with aversive pride toward those who have not even shown any disrespect?!!
“Surely, Aggivessana, your words are offensive and discourteous, but still I will answer you.” […]
“It is wonderful, Master Gotama, it is marvellous how when Master Gotama is spoken to offensively again and again, assailed by discourteous courses of speech, the colour of his skin brightens and the colour of his face clears, as is to be expected of one who is accomplished and fully enlightened. I recall, Master Gotama, engaging Purana Kassapa in debate, and then he prevaricated, led the talk aside, and showed anger, hate, and bitterness. But when Master Gotama is spoken to offensively again and again, assaulted by discourteous courses of speech, the colour of his skin brightens and the colour of his face clears, as is to be expected of one who is accomplished and fully enlightened.” (MN 36).
Beautifully written and very thoughtful, Bhante. Thank you.
It’s important that we don’t get hung up on these badges of honor. They should be seen for what they are: little tentacles of Mara, testing out our ego, checking if we have any vulnerabilities. The traditional Sangha has become rotten with these, indulging in lists of titles that are frankly an embarrassment.
In Australia I’ve been referred to as “dude”, and that’s the highest praise I can think of: to be treated as if I was a human being.
Even that most basic thing is denied to lots of people, Ven. The beggars, derelicts and outcasts who abound everywhere in where I live, living in the most wretched and miserable conditions imaginable, surviving on scraps, wading through lives in which filth is the only thing that is omnipresent…
Sometimes, seeing the lot of these people who have been thrown aside, one’s personal travails lose their grip a little bit and one wonders how they would look at all the washed and fresh faces of the fortunate. Maybe they just yearn to be seen as breathing human beings too…
formalities are less important than not wasting their time; prepare your questions ahead of time, don’t try to lecture them on something they know more about than you and don’t try to chat about worldly things, as they don’t apply