Ultimately I am curious about the basis for his argument. Has he found something that hints so in Chinese/Sanskrit parallels or it is just a well educated guess?
I’m not sure if Polak found something ,
But , by comparing the Pali Nikaya and
Chinese Samyukta Agama , one certainly
Can come up with something !
[quote=“James2997, post:24, topic:5059”]
From the Chinese Sutta , one can see some jains and upanishads influence !
[/quote]Also a much heavier focus on named dhammā in general, I have found, that is to say: their classifications, behaviours, examinations of them which specifically use the terminology “dhamma” much more frequently than their nikāya-counterparts. All in all the Chinese āgamāḥ are very very fascinating.
The nutriment edible food, gross or subtle; second, contact; third, mental volition; fourth, consciousness. These are the four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be.
And how, bhikkhus, should the nutriment edible food be seen? Suppose a couple, husband and wife, had taken limited provisions and were travelling through a desert. They have with them their only son, dear and beloved. Then, in the middle of the desert, their limited provisions would be used up and exhausted, while the rest of the desert remains to be crossed. The husband and wife would think: ‘Our limited provisions have been used up and exhausted, while the rest of this desert remains to be crossed. Let us kill our only son, dear and beloved, and prepare dried and spiced meat. By eating our son’s flesh we can cross the rest of this desert. Let not all three of us perish!’
“Then, bhikkhus, the husband and wife would kill their only son, dear and beloved, prepare dried and spiced meat, and by eating their son’s flesh they would cross the rest of the desert. While they are eating their son’s flesh, they would beat their breasts and cry: ‘Where are you, our only son? Where are you, our only son?’
What do you think, bhikkhus? Would they eat that food for amusement or for enjoyment or for the sake of physical beauty and attractiveness?”
“No, venerable sir.”
“Wouldn’t they eat that food only for the sake of crossing the desert?”
“Yes, venerable sir.”
“It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment edible food should be seen. When the nutriment edible food is fully understood, lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure is fully understood. When lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure is fully understood, there is no fetter bound by which a noble disciple might come back again to this world.
I have read this Sutta many times but it sinks in only today.
Thank you & I am glad it sunk in. I apologise if I was over-assertive on this thread. It took many years for this sutta to sink in for me. I used to wonder & wonder what it was about.
In English, there is the saying (the same as the two strong men):
“The road to hell is paved with good intentions”.
A common interpretation of the saying is that wrongdoings or evil actions are often masked by good intentions; or even that good intentions, when acted upon, may have unintended consequences. A simple example is the introduction of alien species such as the Asian carp, which has become a nuisance due to unexpected proliferation and behaviour.
I think the Four Nutriments is one of the more obscure or unusual teachings in the suttas.
We were discussing this part of SN 12.63:
And how, bhikkhus, should the nutriment mental volition be seen? Suppose there is a charcoal pit deeper than a man’s height, filled with glowing coals without flame or smoke. A man would come along wanting to live, not wanting to die, desiring happiness and averse to suffering. Then two strong men would grab him by both arms and drag him towards the charcoal pit. The man’s volition would be to get far away, his longing would be to get far away, his wish would be to get far away from the charcoal pit. For what reason? Because he knows: ‘I will fall into this charcoal pit and on that account I will meet death or deadly suffering.’
It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment mental volition should be seen. When the nutriment mental volition is fully understood, the three kinds of craving are fully understood. When the three kinds of craving are fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do.
Kathañca, bhikkhave, manosañcetanāhāro daṭṭhabbo? Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, aṅgārakāsu sādhikaporisā puṇṇā aṅgārānaṃ vītaccikānaṃ vītadhūmānaṃ. Atha puriso āgaccheyya jīvitukāmo amaritukāmo sukhakāmo dukkhappaṭikūlo. Tamenaṃ dve balavanto purisā nānābāhāsu gahetvā taṃ aṅgārakāsuṃ upakaḍḍheyyuṃ. Atha kho, bhikkhave, tassa purisassa ārakāvassa cetanā ārakā patthanā ārakā paṇidhi. Taṃ kissa hetu? Evañhi, bhikkhave, tassa purisassa hoti: ‘imañcāhaṃ aṅgārakāsuṃ papatissāmi, tatonidānaṃ maraṇaṃ vā nigacchāmi maraṇamattaṃ vā dukkhan’ti. Evameva khvāhaṃ, bhikkhave, ‘manosañcetanāhāro daṭṭhabbo’ti vadāmi. Manosañcetanāya, bhikkhave, āhāre pariññāte tisso taṇhā pariññātā honti. Tīsu taṇhāsu pariññātāsu ariyasāvakassa natthi kiñci uttarikaraṇīyanti vadāmi.
What do you think the 3 kind of craving meant ?
I think they are Kama Thanha, Bhava Tanha and Vibhava Tanha.
What are the 3 types vedana ?!
“” “It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment contact should be seen. When the nutriment contact is fully understood, the three kinds of feeling are fully understood. When the three kinds of feeling are fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do. “” .
Craving comes after Vedana. You can stop the processes at Vedana. If you understand Vedana it will not move to the next step, craving.
Is it 3 types of feeling is good bad neutral ?
Yes as far as I know.
They are pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling and neutral feeling.
Sukha, Dukkha and Upekkha.
[quote=“James2997, post:35, topic:5059”]
When the three kinds of feeling are fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do. "[/quote]
“Nothing further” = Arahant
Arahant has feelings.
Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element…
Full comprehension of feelings is below:
…whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling (think about) to anything in the world. When he does not cling (think about), he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.
Though careful attention seems to be a central theme in the Satipatthana Sutta.
An interesting observation you made about Polak’s view that the foundations originally referred to the six sense-bases, because IMO the six sense bases are actually a method of practising satipatthana.
why do you think it is obscure. It is the one sutta that had most impact on me. It is unusual I agree, the one place where Buddha used shocking words… eating the flesh of son, couple forced to kill the only son…
Buddha is simply telling us our plight in samsara. But I like it that you think it is unusual, you discerned that. Most people fail to realize the force of this sutta.
This is my very first comment on SC. I was fascinated by Ven. Sujato, his presentations on the 4 buddhist jhanas, blew me away. Many thanks