Free-will and EBT

The Watercooler
21

If we are asking about “free will” in Buddhism, then we will need to know what do we mean “free” and what is “will”?

What is “free”? By normal meaning, free means:

  1. Not under the control or in the power of another.
  2. Not or no longer confined or imprisoned. In other words, no restriction or no restraint.

What is “will”? It is the wish or desire in Buddhism.

Therefore, “free will” means:
A desire that is not under control or in the power of another. In other words, It is a desire that is not influenced by other factors.

In this case, DO in Buddhism said that without contact, there is no feeling. Without feeling, there is no desire. Therefore, without contact, there is no desire. So, desire or will at least depends on contact and feeling. It is at least influenced by contact and feeling.

Without any contact with the object, you are not conscious of the object and have no feeling about it. Therefore, there is no desire or will for it. With no desire or will, there is no “free will.” In other words, to have a will about something, we must at least contact with it first (at least by thinking.) Then by the influence of ignorance, we build up feeling about it. When feeling is strong enough, we will have “will” of what to do with it. So, the desire or will itself is not “free.” in this aspect. It always depends by other factors (such as contact and feeling. Not saying about ignorance!)

A desire that is able to act or be done as one wishes or a desire with no restriction or restraint.

This case is the same with the above. No restriction means nothing can influenced it. However, if we love something or someone so much and so long, it is not easy for us to let it go even if we want to do so. Or if we hate something (or someone) so much and so long, it is not easy for us to love it even if we want to be so or be asked to do so. We will have to struggle with that will. Therefore, we have something that restricted or restrained our will. We are not free to do whatever we wish for.

A sincere Buddhist should not have desire or will to kill living beings for fun. In other words, there are “wills” that a sincere Buddhist should not do. So, they are not free to do whatever they may like. They are restrained by their precepts and moral values.

Your will to practice the Dhamma depends on your posivive feeling about it. If you hate it too much, you will not do so. Even if you like the Dhamma and choose not to practice it, it also depends on feeling. It is simply that you do not have enough posivive feeling about it. If you love it so much that you cannot live without it, it is hard for you not to go with it. Just like if you love a girl so much that you cannot live without her, it is hard to let go of her. There will be a lot of resistance to go against the will in this case when the feeling is strong enough.

If it is harder to pick this way than the other way, then it is not free. However, when you love someone so much, it is much harder for you to let them go forever than to be with them, so you have no free will. Your will depends on your love or your feeling.

22

True. Logic does dictate that.
However, you missed one important premise in the above logic: The Dhamma Eye (dhammacakkhu) at sotāpanna level.

With the Dhamma Eye, then Nibbāna is predetermined as dictated by logic. Without the Dhamma Eye, then Nibbāna is NOT predetermined (also as dictated by logic.)

We don’t talk about “the date and time of extinction are fixed”, instead, we should say “the conditions are fulfilled so the results will come surely”

The reason is:
For anyone not yet obtain the Dhamma Eye: to obtain the Dhamma Eye.
For anyone already obtained the Dhamma Eye: to speed up the process toward Nibbāna (remember we don’t talk about fixed date and time, we talk about fulfilling conditions).

Within the conditioned process, there is NO free will.

In other words: Our will is NOT currently free.

Our will is bound by our craving and clinging. Only at the arahant level, no longer bounded by craving and clinging, then, our will is considered free.

And of course, a mind at arahant level is not within the conditioned process associated with craving and clinging.

So, we can say: “free-will exists” BUT only at arahant level.

Meanwhile, for run-of-the-mill people, there is actually no free-will.
There is only a will “seems to be free” or “thought to be free” for run-of-the-mill people.

  1. Now, maybe certain people will ask whether the Dhamma Eye is predetermined?

My answer is: It depends on infinite conditions. When the number of conditions goes to infinite, you can no longer apply logic correctly to an infinite number of premises.

That’s the reason you can no longer use logic correctly to dictate a “predetermined” outcome for an infinite number of premises. Dhamma Eye’s premises are infinite so it’s not meaningful to talk about “predetermined” Dhamma Eye.

(My short answer to “why the conditions for Dhamma Eye is infinite?” is: i) Infinite past and ii) Those conditions are intertwined)

  1. Or maybe certain people will ask whether the Dhamma Eye is determined by our so called “free will”?

My answer is: Yes it is, it is among infinite conditions. That’s the reason to willfully practice Dhamma for the people who not yet obtained the Dhamma Eye.

23

this article may be of interest:

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Articles/Freedom%20of%20the%20Will_Theravada%20Teachings_Harvey_JBE_2007.pdf

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24

Thanks @josephzizys This is an interesting paper but it is very academic and skirts over the real answer to the question.

The answer to the matter of freewill and kamma (or cause and effect) is to be found in the Abhidhamma. It is found in an ahetu moment of consciousness call Votapana. Votapana determines how we will respond to an arammana, in a wholesome or unwholesome way. After that, volition takes over and we make more kamma.

I know some posters do not like the Abhidhamma, but, the last time I checked, we had three parts to the Canon, not two.

25

When you say “it” do you mean “the answer”?

Can you tell me roughly what “ahetu” “votapana” and “arammana” mean in English and also what “voilition takes over” if voilition doesn’t mean “will”?

I suppose the “we” you are referring to are Theravada Buddhists? I am not a Therevadan Buddhist so I don’t know much about Abhidhamma.

26

Abhidhamma, like anything else, is just another interpretation one can choose to believe or not. Personally I don’t think adding layers of more conceptual theory is needed when a single nikaya is already sufficient.

If you don’t understand already from reading a handful of suttas how to use proper attention to decrease the manifestation of 3 poisons, I don’t think any further texts would help you anyway, and if you do understand, then further texts aren’t needed. So it’s a catch 22, if you understand, you don’t need more, and if you don’t understand, having more won’t help.

That’s my opinion and interpretation.

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27

I just remembered that I wrote about free will for my meditation students last year, and I thought it might be helpful to publish the article online as well. So I’ve just done that.

Basically, free will isn’t a Buddhist concept. It’s a crucial concept in Christianity because we have to choose good over evil in order to be saved by God, and if choice is difficult or impossible then the whole system makes no sense. Buddhism has a different way of looking at things, and so if Buddhists are going to talk about free will at all it should probably be to critique it.

I hope posting links to our own websites is okay. Here’s the link.

2 Likes
28

“It” does refer to the answer.

Ahetu means without cause. So it is outside of the law of cause and effect.
Votapana or Votthapana is referred to as the determining consciousness.
Arammana or Alambana refers to the six sense objects.

Each time a sense object makes contact, a series of moments of consciousness arises. Most of these moments are either kamma (cause) or vipaka (effect), however, votthapana is not. It is ahetu. This moment determines a wholesome or unwholesone response to the sense object. In the series of moments that follow votthapana, the javana moments, cetana (voilition) is the primary, driving force. This is when kamma is made.

Because of connotations associated with the term “freewill” (Christian/phycological), the term is probably not a good translation or explanation of votthapana, but is the closest. The reason the term “freewill” is not a good fit is because there is an implicit expectation that “something” has the will to be exercised. Of course, this is not the case as even ahetu moments of consciousness are void of “self”.

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Thank you @HinMarkPeng I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me.

30

In the Abhidhamma the term means that the citta thus designated lacks any of the six hetus: lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha.

The word ahetuka means “without roots” and qualifies those types of consciousness that are devoid of the mental factors called hetu, “roots.” These types, eighteen in number, do not contain any of the three unwholesome roots — greed (lobha), hatred (dosa), and delusion (moha) — nor do they contain the three bright roots — non-greed (alobha), non-hatred (adosa), and nondelusion (amoha) —, which may be either wholesome or indeterminate. Since a root is a factor that helps to establish stability in a citta, those cittas that lack roots are weaker than those that possess them.
(Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, p. 33)

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Hetu is often translated as “causal condition”. Just goes to show how focusing on the expression of words (interpretations) rather than the reality that they represent can cause differences of opinion.

32

For anyone interested.

This Bhavanga consciousness, which one always experiences as long as it is uninterrupted by external stimuli, vibrates for a thought-moment and passes away when a physical or mental object enters the mind. Suppose, for instance, the object presented is a physical form. Now, when the Bhavanga stream of consciousness is arrested, sense door consciousness (pa?advārāvajjana), whose function is to turn the consciousness towards the object, arises and passes away. Immediately after this there arises visual consciousness (cakkhuvi?āna) which sees the object, but yet knows no more about it. This sense operation is followed by a moment of the reception of the object so seen (sampaticchana). Next arises the investigating thought-moment (santīrana) which momentarily examines the object so seen. This is followed by the determining thought-moment (votthapana) when discrimination is exercised and freewill may play its part. On this depends the subsequent psychologically important stage Javana. It is at this stage that an action is judged, whether it be moral or immoral. Kamma is performed at this stage.

Chapter 20, The Buddha and His Teachings, Ven. Narada Mahathera
with my Bold highlight.

33

Sure, but never when it’s used in connection with the votthapanacitta.

34

This is correct because Votthapanacitta functions outside of Kamma and is therefore Ahetu.

35

No, it has nothing to do with that.

The fivefold sensory consciousnesses, starting with eye-consciousness, are kammic resultants (vipākacitta), yet these too are ahetuka. In the abhidhammic treatment of cittas, the word “ahetuka” has only one meaning: the absence of the three kusala roots and the three akusala roots.

36

I do not know much Pali except some basic words, and I am not a scholar so what I said is from a simple person’s perspective. Moreover, I am not an English speaker, so my word choices may not be very precise and accurate. However, I hope that you may understand what I try to say.

Situation: Assumed that a responsible mother sees her beloved young child is in danger, and “free” means that we can equally pick this choice or other choice.

Questions:
How discrimination is exercised in this case? Assumed: Protect or not protect? Do they have the same weight?

  • If they have the same weight, then why is it normally very difficult if not saying impossible for a responsible mother to ignore this danger situation and choose “not protect”?

  • If they do not have the same weight, does this discrimination depend on anything (such as the love for her young child, her courage, her feeling…?) If this discrimination depends on something, how can it be free to perform freewill without the influence of those conditions, or how will freewill play its part? If it does not depend on anything then why it has different weight for its choices?

37

Source: Pali Kanon: Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines

‘determining consciousness’, is that mindelement (functioning independently of karma; s. Tab. I, 70) which in the process of sense-perception performs the function of determining the sense-object.

So, in this case, ahetu also means “without cause”. If it was not this way, there would be no opportunity for beings to free themselves from Paticcasamuppada.

38

For the sake of argument, let’s assume that awakening is predetermined. In this case, you’d still practice the Dhamma because it’s exactly your practice that will lead to awakening. As an example, imagine a speedy car coming to you. Whether you’re gonna survive is fixed and depends on whether you’ll want to get out of the way, yet you won’t think “the result is already determined, so why bother saving myself?”

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39

Indeed, the doctrine you rebuke is known in so-called western philosophy as “fatalism”. It is not implied by determinism and might even fly in the face of it.

40

The response is not for me. However, I like to add some points here. Please feel free to ignore this if it does not relate to your query.

According to the Suttas, consciousness is dependently originated and does not arise without a cause; therefore, there is no such consciousness that has no cause.

Silly man, who on earth have you ever known me to teach in that way? Haven’t I said in many ways that consciousness is dependently originated, since consciousness does not arise without a cause? But still you misrepresent me by your wrong grasp, harm yourself, and make much bad karma. This will be for your lasting harm and suffering.(MN38)

Will or desire arises with a cause. With feeling as condition, craving. When feeling is strong enough, will or craving will arise without exception. Just like when the heat reached 100 degree Celcius, water will boil. The stronger the condition, the harder to change the condition and stop the process. To stop the boiling, we will need to stop the heat. To stop the heat, we will need to remove the source of the heat. The harder to remove heat or the source of the heat, the harder to stop the boiling.

DO process is maintained by ignorance as condition

With ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, name-and-form; with name-and-form as condition, the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering

Dependent Origination is a law without any exception if conditions are maintained (SN12.20)

Thus, bhikkhus, the actuality in this, the inerrancy, the nototherwiseness, specific conditionality: this is called dependent origination

To end DO process, we must end ignorance, not by some special consciousness without cause to pick and choose.

But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness, cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form, cessation of the six sense bases; with the cessation of the six sense bases, cessation of contact; with the cessation of contact, cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering (SN12.1)

We end ignorance by learning and practicing. This is a gradual process. The more we understand the Dhamma and practicing it correctly, the less ignorance we have. With less ignorance, we will have less desire. This is how we reverse the DO process. This is how “will” is determined. With stronger condition, we will have stronger will to do something. With weaker condition, we will have less will to do something. When the condition is strong enough and reaches its threshold, the “will” must arise with no exception. However, we can reverse the DO process and end the will by wisdom. The more wisdom we have, the less ignorance we get and the easier for us to end the will.

DO process does not need any special consciousness to pick and choose. With proper condition, feeling arises. Without condition, feeling ends. To end DO, we remove the condition by wisdom, not by some special consciousness that has no cause.