Hearing the Nuns on How Their Texts are Lived

[anon29387788]

Thanks for your reply Bhante.

@sujato

I think it’s problematic to rely on the Vinaya as the primary source for how the nuns are to live. It is filtered through a patriarchal lens, and offers a very partial and sometimes distorted view.

This is one of my main reasons for wanting to know how actual real, life nuns are relating to their texts. I feel it is a starting point, at least, for redressing some of the inherited imbalances and inaccuracies.

It seems from what a few have said elsewhere, that even amongst/between current Bhikkhuni communities, there are differences in interpretation and possibly some of this is based in differences in understanding of how to approach the Dhamma too…(?)…

For me personally, this makes it tricky… I want to hear different voices and experiences, I want monastic women to feel safe enough to share…but I want to be able to respectfully and kindly then look at all the differences and say, “well, that makes sense to me and that doesn’t”… Which doesn’t mean anything except that I think these kinds of conversations themselves need to be the outcome right now.

And taking a step back from this as an outcome, even just having a space to share needs to be a goal.

So I suppose I see a series of possible aims:

1. A sharing of views, experiences and how the current nuns are relating to and understading their rules…

…leading in an organic sort of way too…

2. A conversation - held in different ways and spaces - about whether these understandings stand up to reasonable scrutiny - particularly in terms of things like the general gist of the Dhamma, the earliest texts on the nuns (such as the Therigatha as you’ve mentioned) and the 4 great standards and other things like that I really know little about, like text critical studies and so on. This type of conversation has to happen I think…not in the sense of, we must force it or it’s right and correct…rather in the sense that I think it’s inevitable and is perhaps already taking place. I think it’s important that an assumption of non-judgementalism is the basis.

Ideally, I would see, perhaps in a few years, such conversations, eventually leading to:

3. A fearless transparency and openness amongst the different bhikkhuni communities about how they interpret their texts/rules and a significant degree of understanding and acceptance of any differences that may exist between the different communites, not just amongst the nuns but amongst the broad base of lay supporters. Perhaps to some degree this exists. I would just like to see it become a popular, well accepted norm.

---

Having said all this, and being acutely and ironically, aware of my non-monastic status and your non-nun status, I still want to say that comments like this from monks such as yourself:

@sujato

In Bhikkhuni Vinaya Studies I argued that the existing texts, especially of the Pali and Lokuttaravada Vinayas, point to an earlier Vinaya tradition among the nuns, which lacked some of the patriarchal features of the developed Vinayas. Notably, that ordination was originally by nuns only. I believe this is well established, but of course it only applies to a limited scope. There are many more areas needing such analysis.

…are just plain helpful. Thank you.

@sujato

I think the Therīgāthā offers a much better, more honest, and more reliable view of the life of the nuns, as told in their own words.

Is this the earliest text on Bhikkhunis that we have available to us?