SuttaCentral
I used to go by “stay(ing) with the teaching/teacher until one is firmly grounded”. But then I came to see one problem: What if the teaching is so wrong that one can’t ever be grounded?
Now, I advise people to evaluate for themselves if their defilements are reducing, having put in reasonable time and effort. “Reasonable” is subjective, yes, and it has to be, as this matter is subjective.
When meditation is carried out with a ‘gaining’ idea (i.e., to reduce MY stress, make ME manage MY emotions, etc., which is often the case when presenting mindfulness in MBSR programs, etc) then it can be counterproductive if one practices it for a long time. However, if meditation is carried out by understanding/learning the Four Foundations of Mindfulness - then even if a so-called “adverse effect” happens - then one can view it as simply a present moment experience (arising/ceasing) without attaching/repelling it. Buddhist teachings beautifully explain the Five Hindrances, and the ways in which one could overcome them as one gradually travels the path to liberation.
As a therapist, I can say that, very simply, meditation brings up painful issues. Some people can work through these issues on their own, while others need someone to help them. This can be a therapist, a Dhamma Group, kalyana mittas, or a meditation teacher.
Bringing painful issues to awareness is both valuable from a psychological perspective and from the perspective of someone who wants to follow the eightfold path. But most people need to walk the path with others.
Hi, I used to read and comment on this site when I was learning about Buddhism as part of a master’s degree in ‘mindfulness-based approaches’ in a UK university. I had a brain injury at the time and I was investigating the neuroplastic properties of meditation. I am familiar with Willoughby Britton from my research and in practical terms would agree with her position to an extent. What she may also consider to be harmful effects are also enlightening realities and going through a meditative process brings these realities to the surface which means it’s all about the perspective and non Buddhist views of events experienced. Meditation in a western context may misinterpret elements of the path as psychological or psychiatric events. As meditation evolves, East meeting West, the right hemisphere of the brain meets the left hemisphere of the brain, a balance will emerge because from my experience the middle way balances the hemispheres of the brain. If I’m allowed I could share my thesis with you, meditation meets brain injury in some very surprizing ways Research thesis. - Brain injury rehabilitation (mendingbrokenbrains.com) . If this is not allowed to be shared here please delete or ask me to delete it, I mean not offence. On the other hand, it will bring context to Willoughby. The path can be found from many starting points!
What kind of ‘meditation’ (that brings up ‘painful issues’) do you refer to?
It seems you do not refer to Buddhist meditation (i.e. ‘right view’ and ‘mindfulness’ as mentioned above).
I’m surprised at the contributors in this thread dismissing, minimising and scoffing at the idea of safety in meditation.
Perhaps it’s time for a reminder of the famous incident at Vesali, where hundreds of monks commited suicide after learning asubha contemplation from the Buddha.
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.9/en/sujato
If direct students of the Buddha could have this sort of harmful response, we should at least entertain the possibility that meditation isn’t always safe…
All minds are not the same. People have different experiences. Something that is not an issue for you might be a big problem for others.
If your meditation is going well and fine, that’s great! However, there are many people for whom meditation has actually created harmful results. This is a known problem, even though it might be news to some of you. So, I’d suggest listening and trying to understand the experiences of others, rather than glibly dismissing these problems as “not Buddhist meditation” or saying that people simply need mindfulness and right view—not having those things is precisely the problem here.
In this example you provide (that happened during the time of the Buddha) people did not have a method to gain an overall good understanding of the teachings expect by listening to occasional sermons delivered by the Buddha or his disciples. So, people had to build their understanding gradually. However, nowadays, one can gain a good overall understanding of the teachings by easily accessing the discourses available on the internet, etc., so, it is very unlikely for a person to get overly distressed by practising just one type of meditation.
Also, I have read some of the material by this researcher (Britton) and have found that she seems to consider mindfulness to be ‘something’ that one induces into the body (like taking a drug or drinking coffee). This, however is an incorrect understanding because from Buddhist teachings, we know that mindfulness is a tool (a natural capacity that one has) that is used to develop insight into reality (i.e., to reach the goal of understanding the nature of human experience). Also all the so called “adverse effects” fall under the Five Hindrances, and we need to remember that Buddhist teachings provide effective remedies for the hindrances. So, if we understand the teachings properly (also have a broad overview of the teachings), then the so called “adverse effects” do not make sense at all - they are merely hindrances that we need to overcome in order to tread towards enlightenment.
The word “if” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your response. And many beginner meditators simply do not have the kind of knowledge you are taking about.
I agree with your comment Sikkhakamo! When meditation brings up “painful issues,” the goal of meditation is to kindly/gently bring the mind back to the meditation object (e.g. the breath, body sensations, etc.). But if we entertain these thoughts, we give them power to overwhelm us! So, whoever simply labels these as “adverse effects” have not understood the methods/goals of Buddhist meditation. Also, if we find that we are excessively getting caught up in thoughts, then it would be best to change the meditation method, and perhaps do something like walking meditation or even loving-kindness meditation, etc., until the mind becomes stable.
I have seen the authenticity of this passage questioned by respected scholars - I know, for example, that Analayo has questioned it.
Nonetheless, I agree completely with the point you are making, and even if that particular incident did not take place it shows that the early compilers of the canon seemed well aware of the potential dangers of meditation.
I am also slightly disturbed by some of the answers in this thread.
“You can’t meditate without the other 7 factors of the path” - indeed, but even having a basis in those other 7 factors may not be sufficient.
“You just need to be aware of the 5 hindrances” - one has not even completely abandoned the 5 hindrances until the stage of Anagami.
It is the duty of a good teacher to provide that information, instead of simply referring to these things as “adverse effects”!
Yes, the whole path is about overcoming the five hindrances. However, overcoming the hindrances happen with a good understanding of the dhamma. Instead, what researchers (like Britton) do is to tell people to give up meditation or seek psychiatric treatment!
This is very good point. If one states that meditation has actually created harmful results, then some essential information is needed regarding what kind of meditation practice refers to.
The main purpose of Buddhist meditation (such as ‘right view’, ‘mindfulness’) is to overcome any negative emotions (such as any feeling which causes one to be miserable and sad).
Thanks, and I agree. Also, the ultimate goal of meditation is to deeply understand the ‘nature of reality’ - so, regardless of our judgment of the experience (as ‘negative’ or ‘positive’), meditation enables us to see the arising and ceasing nature of both ‘negative’ and ‘positive’ states, as well as neutral states. This is what gradually cultivates ultimate insights into reality.
Could you provide detailed examples of harm, from texts and also from modern life experience please.
We also have the Buddha’s own accounts of his foolish meditation practice during his long period of unhelpful asceticism. Many of the psychological issues that arise from meditation are caused by striving too hard and harming the mind and body through forceful practices. Later generations of Buddhists up till today include the “dukkhacariya” image of the bodhisatta in temple art and architecture as a reminder of what happens when meditation goes wrong!
Sure!
On my first retreat as a student, a person with no prior history of mental health concerns had a psychotic break and stole the porridge pot and sat in the corner of the dining hall voraciously consuming the entire very large pot of porridge using the serving ladle as a spoon and throwing porridge at people who tried to come near.
I’ve met people who claim that I and other meditation teachers are giving them secret meditation instructions using our “psychic powers” to do make them do things in meditation.
I was at a monastery where a monk started talking to trees and then stopped eating and drinking water on meditation retreat, locked himself in his hut writing pages of nonsense which he decorated the room with and refused to come out, in the end an angle grinder was used to open the door.
Another monk reported that he had been hearing voices in meditation and following the instructions to test the voice’s commands.
One person stripped naked on retreat and went from hut to hut screaming. Another stopped eating for 12 days because food is “loathsome”. Neither had previously diagnosed conditions.
These are just a few things that I’ve witnessed, and anyone who has spent some time in monasteries or retreat centres will have similar stories. Meditation is not always safe for everyone. I’m not sure why that is so difficult to comprehend!
It’s not wrong or un-Buddhist to acknowledge that problems can occur and that teachers, monasteries and retreat centres have a duty of care to those in their premises. Part of that duty of care is to minimise risk, which out another way is to have regard to safety of people in their care. This means being aware of potential issues arising and knowing how to handle them properly when something happens, rather than causing more harm by ignoring it or spiritual bypassing the issue.
As an analogy, when a child learns to ride a bike we don’t just send them out onto the highway, we start by getting them a helmet, we give training wheels and make sure they know how to balance, and we develop their skills and knowledge in a place where they can get used to riding the bike, standing nearby to catch them if they start to topple and if they do fall we apply a plaster or take them to the hospital if they break something. For most people, riding a bike becomes easy and problem free but we still have regard to safety, because we know people can get injured. So we have road rules and bike lanes to help create safety but even experienced riders can fall and have an injury. Even if some people have never seen the results of a bad fall from a bike, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. However, someone who works in the emergency ward would tell you that injuries do happen.
In the same way we can’t just hope that a few YouTube videos, or a weekend retreat or instructions in a book are going to suddenly teach everyone all they need to know about meditation; there’s no one size fits all easy approach because peoples’ background and experience are so different. Whilst meditation is fine and good for most people it’s not the same for everyone which is why we need to think about their safety, out of kindness and compassion and responsibility.
Regarding your comment, I have explained below that, (i) if one approaches meditation mechanically, using a ‘do this to get this’ approach, or (ii) if one learns meditation with the aim of gaining more ‘hedonic happiness’ in one’s life - then it can be problematic. Before delving to that - regarding your statement:
This happened because the Buddha-to-be had not YET figured out the path to liberation. After figuring out the path - any so called “adverse effect” is seen as one’s ‘here & now’ (present moment) experience and such investigations lead to deeper insights into the workings of the mind.
Regarding the long list of modern day examples of ‘harm’ - please note that this type of list can be complied for ANY skill one might be learning. In terms of ‘physical issues’ that are listed, examples include: learning to cook, learning to skate, practising gymnastics, swimming, mountain climbing, etc. - the list can go on and on!
Regarding the listed ‘psychological factors,’ such as people with depression whose mindstates worsen, and/or people who are reliving past traumatic experiences: if this is happening, that means they are entertaining and ruminating on thoughts instead of observing thoughts (i.e., instead of observing the presence/absence of these thoughts and gently bringing the mind back to the meditation object). If such drifting happen, changing the meditation object (e.g. switching to loving kindness meditation, or doing walking meditation, etc) can be helpful. So, in other words, it is best to contemplate what remedies can be taken to address these “adverse effects” rather than researching and coming to the final conclusion that meditation is problematic to some people! So, just like how one might provide good instructions for developing any skill, for meditation, the advice one needs to provide people first is to clearly explain what exactly we are trying to do when meditating. Buddhist practices are NOT about cultivating hedonic happiness - it is ultimately about understanding the nature of human experience (although hedonic happiness might be a ‘side effect’ for some householders, because they are less bothered by and are able to ‘let go’ their day to day stressors). Therefore even when one experiences these types of so called “adverse effects”, the reaction should be ‘how do I overcome this’ - rather than thinking ‘Oh, meditation has all types of problematic issues, and therefore I should warn others!” All adverse effects are overcomable if someone has sufficient interest in understanding the deep teachings of the Buddha. If someone is not interested and is only meditating to gain hedonic happiness - then they might as well give up meditation or do only a little bit of it as needed!
Regarding ‘psychiatric diagnosis’: remember that this is a highly contested area! I am not sure if you know that the DSM disorder labels are “diagnosed” using check-lists – there are no objective tests (blood tests, tissue tests, X-rays, etc.), because decades of research have failed to find any structural or other brain differences between so called “psychiatric patients” and healthy individuals. I suggest reading some articles in the following website (psychiatrists and other qualified people intelligently discuss these issues here: Psychiatrists Call for Transition to Social Rather Than Biological Treatments
The Buddha beautifully described how our minds work, and understanding the teachings ‘within ourselves’ is what gradually leads to spiritual liberation. So, even if so called “adverse effects” arise in meditation, these point to how our minds work and this is how they need to be understood rather than thinking “oh, it is taking away my hedonic happiness!” For example, we get depressed due to our attachments (depression is a result of losing something we attach to - and these involve any of the five aggregates - this is explained in the following article: Theoretical Foundations to Guide Mindfulness Meditation: A Path to Wisdom | Current Psychology
(I think a pdf of this article is available via google scholar).
So, these “adverse effects” might even be able to pin point the areas we are attached to and remedial actions (in the form of meditation) can be taken by practicing different types of meditation practices listed in the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, and also ANY subjective thoughts can be observed as the here and now experience (panic, etc.)
Regarding strange behaviours that people display: this appears to be happening due to people taking psychiatric drugs, and suddenly stopping them (these are known as “withdrawal effects”). Here, we also need to know that pharmaceutical companies come up with psychoactive psychiatric drugs (using a trial and error approach) with a profit-driven motive and they come up with them without ANY theory regarding understandings related to the brain - see the following article: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1910603
See also the following: Depression: why drugs and electricity are not the answer - PubMed
So, when people suddenly stop taking these drugs - that can trigger what are known as ‘withdrawal effects’ - this happens because the body has got used to the drug and it is unable to cope with the cellular (physiological) effects that happen when the drug is no longer there in their system. This can result in bizarre behaviour - it does not happen due to meditation. Note that currently, a large proportion of people (~20%?) are taking psychiatric drugs and therefore this phenomenon is more widely seen than before.
In summary, Buddhist meditation is not about blindly following some specific system of meditation (i.e., ‘do this’ to ‘get this’ type of approach) - the reason for the meditations and the ultimate aims of meditation and mindfulness are beautifully described by the Buddha. So, if someone clearly understands the teachings, then they would not suffer from so called “adverse effects” - and even if they do occur, these experiences offer a window to understand the teachings at a much deeper level.
Interesting generalization of ‘wrong’ practice in the traditional sense, however the Western titles of psychological and psychiatric issues in the Western sense when relating this to Willoughby Britton’s research field are not Buddhist concepts. Willoughby is a psychiatrist at Brown University in the US and her research into meditation relates to apps and mindfulness from the clinical mindfulness movement. She often talks about the science of mindfulness but there is no western science of mindfulness, it is still being invented. Western mindfulness does not consider dhammas (as in the Sattipatthana sutta) because they have been replaced by scientific models of psychology. These models are all theoretical and change all the time depending on the current research, meaning that the definition of depression and PTSD also change all the time. Many researchers have their own view of what these conditions are too but they are all working hypotheses. Depression in the mindfulness movement is defined as cyclic verbalized thought patterns, in other words extreme mind wandering of past events. Anxiety on the other hand is cyclic verbalized thought patterns about the future, in other words mind wandering. PTSD is the visualization of past events. All of them cause tension and stress, unpleasant feeling tones and proliferate emotional angst and further mind wandering.
When people with these conditions meditate, they are coming face to face with the reality of their existence and as a consequence relive their experiences. It’s not the meditation that causes it because it is already there. It’s in all of us, Dukkha, however in western mindfulness scientific forms of psychology classify and explain these conditions in a different way. Whereas the dhammas allow variation along the path through their mind/body frameworks to explain what is encountered with the help of a good guide, western mindfulness/psychology does not.
There are no definitive tests for depression, anxiety or PTSD, no brain scans, blood tests, stress hormones etc. They don’t exist as proven phenomena but only as theoretical concepts. Dhammas on the other hand provides a path with multiple frameworks to explore the reality of existence that allows one to unfold their own experience. You have to face it and accept it to move forward.
Willoughby’s arguments focus on apps with forms of meditation that promotes sleep and western forms of mindfulness meditation with western psychology and as a psychiatrist using western methods of science her arguments are extensively flawed. Willoughby is also an egotist because she hid her own research into sleep and meditation because the research did not give the answer she predicted. She thought meditation makes you go to sleep but as you know and as she found out it does not. It may be the case that the meditation she is referring to is not meditation at all, but are forms of relaxation instead. Like in your traditional example, wrong meditation and as someone else commented, wrong view.
Sure, but we are all in the position the Buddha was before liberation. Of course, one could argue that if one has problems one is approaching it incorrectly, but that’s exactly what happens to a student of anything, no matter how good the instructions. An important role of a good live teacher (such as the Buddha and others in the Suttas) is to provide personalized guidance through difficult patches.
Dhamma practice is designed to disrupt deeply-held beliefs. Given the profound changes it promises, there is a lot of scope for serious problems arising during the development of the path and I’m quite skeptical of claims that problems are not to be expected.
I hope by now you might understand why I first responded to you: “So, what is the so-called “your meditation”?”.
