How to make meditation 'safe'?

The Watercooler
46

This is an unfalsifiable proposition, and it is a position which when held to can cause harm to other people.

The problem with such a proposition is that if somebody is suffering from adverse effects you could always claim, “well, you just do not understand the teaching clearly” (and that makes it unfalsifiable).

Nobody starts out completely understanding the teachings. If they did, then they would already be an arahant and would not need the teachings.

There is also an ambiguity as to what it means “to understand” the teachings, or, to put it another way, “understanding” is a term which has different ranges and extents. One can understand the teachings in theory but in practice still suffer.

If somebody is suffering adverse effects from meditation you could say, “this is because you just don’t understand the teachings.” There is an extent to which this is true, and there is an extent to which it is not true.

But for the extent to which it is true it is very often not a helpful statement to make.

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47

No - we are NOT in the same position. ‘Buddhas’ are special individuals in samsara who first discover the path and then they teach it to others by carefully organizing the teachings. We have to understand and practice the path that was taught by a Buddha. We do not have to newly discover the path.

This statement is a general one. What does it mean to “disrupt”? If we consider the five aggregates - it is our perceptions that change (i.e., the three characteristics) - I could explain further if needed, but these are the basic teachings. One of the articles I posted earlier describes this.

48

I agree. “We have to understand and practice the path that was taught by a Buddha.” However are still starting from the position of being deluded (like the Buddha before his awakening and his students after his awakening). There are many teachings in the suttas where the Buddha had to correct his students who were having difficulties, despite having previous personal instruction from him. It therefore seems quite logical that modern practitioners will have difficulties from time to time.

Following the teachings to their fulfilment will result in profound changes. Dhamma practice calls into question such central things as our sense of self. That process can be deeply disturbing to some practitioners.

Of course, technically the problems practitioners experience are caused by “wrong understanding”, just as we could say that when an athlete injures themselves they are “training incorrectly”. But developing “right understanding” is part of the path, not something that magically happens.

As @Soren notes:

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49

If someone is suffering from adverse effects from meditation, one needs to first find out what kind of meditation practice has created harmful results.

SN 22. 101 = SA 263 report the Buddha as saying that by knowing, by seeing is the destruction of the influxes, not by not knowing, not by not seeing. The ending of dukkha requires that one knows and sees things as they really are (= ‘right view’).

50

Hi All,
This thread has been put in the slow mode because things are getting a little heated in this thread. There are posts being made in this thread that are not in the spirit of Right Speech. Here are a few reminders from the guidelines which I’ve highlighted for everyone’s convenience.

This is a friendly place for Dhamma discussion

Participating in this forum should be taken as an opportunity to practice Right Speech. As such, please show the forum and your fellow practitioners the same respect shown in a temple. We, too, are a community spiritual center — a space to share Dhamma ideas, understandings and questions in a supportive atmosphere.

Abandoning harsh speech, he abstains from harsh speech; he speaks such words as are gentle, pleasing to the ear, and loveable, as go to the heart, are courteous, desired by many, and agreeable to many.

We might not always be wise, but we can always be kind

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    :pray:t5:
    On behalf of the Moderators,
    trusolo
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51

To understand this, you need to first understand what “adverse effects” are. They were listed by Akaliko (above) - if you go through them one by one (especially the ‘psychological’ ones that mostly concern us), you will see that all of them are about attaching to present moment experiences. Mindfulness is about non-judgementally observing one’s present moment experiences. So, it is NOT an ‘unfalsifiable’ statement, but something one can understand through contemplation!

Regarding your quoted sentence - did you read my sentence that is immediately after that? The rest of the sentence reads “and even if they do occur, these experiences offer a window to understand the teachings at a much deeper level.” So, if an experience of anger happens in the present moment, the person would see the anger as a present moment experience that is arising/ceasing instead of getting angry about the anger. They wouldn’t go thinking/proliferating about the anger and that the meditation is not working, etc. - remember that in meditation, we mindfully observe whatever that arises in our present moment experience. Also, we only experience one thought moment at a time - see the following article: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2158244015583860

Also, I agree that no one starts with a complete understanding, but the so-called adverse effects can usefully inform a person regarding the teachings, and the teachings can enable them to delve deeper into understanding. So, one can use the teachings of the Buddha as a map to guide one’s understanding instead of giving up meditation due to “adverse effects.”

52

Yes, I agree there can be “difficulties” (which is another word for “adverse effects”) - but these difficulties do not need to be given special importance where people are asked to stop the practices altogether and do other things (things that one enjoys doing, related to hedonic happiness) - this is the advice that Willoughby gives to meditation practitioners (please see the start of this post). All I am saying is that it is not necessary to make a big deal of these ‘adverse effects’ and study it as a research focus. If something needs to be studied, then it should be things like how people can get over difficulties - for example, researchers can study if people who are not too familiar with the teachings would be better off if they engage in practices like loving kindness meditation before they do breath meditation, and also if doing more walking meditation is beneficial rather than observing thoughts. Regarding your statement:

If one practices in the correct way, even such ‘disturbances’ can be seen within one’s own experience instead of attaching to it and considering it as “my disturbance that happened as a result of the practice" - in other words, one needs to see that these are ALSO arising and ceasing manifestations. ALL our experiences are arising and ceasing manifestations regardless of the importance we give them.

By the way, for my own interest, can you please give me examples for your statement below:

Thanks!

53

An interesting, though much less common, example is reported in Amy Schmidt’s biography of Dipa Ma:

• Becoming so deeply concentrated that you fail to notice a dog has grabbed your leg in its jaw.

:dog:

Dipa Ma’s first retreat did not go as she expected. Once at the center, she was given a room and basic instruction. She began to practice in the early morning hours, first focusing her attention on the breath, then noting the sensations, thoughts, and emotions arising in her body and mind as she sat. As the day wore on, her concentration deepened. That afternoon, she started to walk to the meditation hall to meet with her teacher. Suddenly she stopped, unable to move. She wasn’t sure why, she only knew that she couldn’t go forward or pick up her foot. She stood there, puzzled but not particularly distressed, for several minutes. Finally, she looked down and saw that a large dog had clamped its teeth around her leg. Her concentration had become so deep, even in the first hours of practice, that she had not felt it.
Jolted from her concentrated state, Dipa Ma called for help and tried to shake her leg free. The dog would not let go, but finally some monks managed to pull it away.

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54

It seems quite intuitive that putting the mind in unusual states for extended periods of time could have strange results, including psychiatric ones. The brain didn’t evolve with beings maintaining single pointedness on an object for hours and days on end.

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55

No, it is NOT intuitive. This is because the mind-brain relationship problem is a problem that has not yet been resolved in the literature, although an incorrect assumption is often made that it has been resolved (such as what you are doing here). What the Buddha did was to carefully analyze the mind in terms of its moment by moment manifestation which involves understanding the ‘present moment,’ etc.

56

Regarding the initial questions @Noone-is-here raised in this thread - I thought of adding the following ‘final thoughts’:

In Willoughby’s research (and in the other articles that were listed by Noone) - the research focus is on (i) quantifying the number of people that are ‘adversely’ affected by practising meditation, and (ii) listing the different ways in which people are affected (re-living trauma, having worse moods, emotions, etc.). In this research, these ‘adverse effects’ are talked about as if they are ‘injuries’ that have unfortunately happened to people as a result of meditation!

However, these researchers conduct their investigations by making a huge incorrect assumption. They assume that meditation is about ‘inducing’ something into the body - therefore they think that just like how drugs have various effects if they are taken in excess, meditation practices can have unintended “adverse effects,” and therefore ‘too much meditation’ can be bad. I have also heard Willoughby comparing too much meditation to drinking too much coffee, and she talks about what ‘dose’ of meditation is ideal for people, etc.!

Now, if we look at the teachings of the Buddha, we see that meditation and mindfulness practices are carried out to understand reality (i.e., to understand the true nature of human experience). In the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the Buddha describes how different practices contribute towards these understandings, and also explains ‘causality.’ How meditation can be cultivated in all four postures is also explained by the Buddha and this means mindfulness meditation can be done all the time one is awake. There is no dose restriction! This alertness (mindfulness or ‘Yoniso manasikāra) is what gradually leads one to wisdom and insight.

So, if any of the so-called ‘adverse effects’ happen within meditation, these experiences can be insightfully seen within the Buddha’s guidance, especially in terms of overcoming the Five Hindrances. The five hindrances are: Desire, Ill-will, Sloth/torpor, Restlessness/worry, and Doubt. Now, if we contemplate, it is possible to see that ALL so-called ‘adverse effects’ fall under these five hindrances. For example, ‘reliving past trauma,’ ‘worse mood,’ etc., are about hate/ill-will (i.e., hating the people involved in that past event/thought, hating to experience this emotion, etc.). Also, if one really ‘wants’ (i.e., attaches to the idea of) a peaceful meditation - this is about the hindrance of desire. Restlessness/worry can also come up even as a result of thinking whether one might experience ‘adverse effects’ from meditation! (the way to overcome this is to observe this thought as it is - coming and going). So, if all experiences are viewed as present moment experiences, we cannot talk about ‘adverse effects’ and therefore they would not negatively influence a person - instead the practices gradually take the person to a peaceful happiness and even contentment regarding ‘seeing things as they are.’

Therefore as I see it, if researchers really want to study the ‘adverse effects’ of meditation, then it would be more helpful to study how a person can overcome these effects and continue to progress in meditation (instead of telling people to not meditate or warning people about these ‘dangers’ - unfortunately this is what is happening now).

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57

Interesting theory. Do you have a citation for that?

Plenty of animals who hunt do indeed maintain single pointed concentration for extended periods while e.g. laying in wait. There are some amazing stories of e.g. dogs being completely oblivious to explosions while tracking a scent.

The samādhi of the hunter is the textbook example of micca-samādhi. Not “Right Concentration” for sure, but concentration none the less…

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58

Thank you Bhante for adding your balanced voice of reason and compassion.
I was getting dismayed at the tone of the discussion and then your words brought me immediately back to a heart of kindness and compassion and (hopefully) understanding.

I guess it should come as no surprise that strong views, opinions and positions could come up even in this community, after all most of us are still working to overcome the defilements. Thank you all for reminding me of that.

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59

Hi John_B

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trusolo (on behalf of the moderators)

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60

I am not pretending to be a meditation teacher. Just sharing some thoughts.

Patience is paramount. Deeper understanding of the hindrances are gained by their subsiding. Deeper understanding of mindfulness and so forth by their arising and growth. Their is no other way. The texts/teachers only point the way.

For example say, some degree of peaceful and clear mindfulness arise in terms of the heart beat(it seems heart beat can also become the obsession of a disturbed mind) or how your hands are placed on your lap etc but you were hoping to develop mindfulness of the breath. That’s alright at least you get a glimpse of ‘upatthita sati’ , ‘samahitam cittam’ etc meanings.(for meditation to become a skill it’s going to take time)

Regarding mindfulness of breath, texts say this

‘ānāpānassati bhāvetabbā vitakkupacchedāya’

As far as I am concerned this is law. If good mindfulness of breath arises it is Impossible that anyone would fly off in to insanity.

‘Khanti paramam tapo titikkha’

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