I don't think (hard)jhana is needed to attain nibbana

Sariputta on attainment

“The Blessed One, the Buddha, the seer
was teaching Dhamma to another.
As he taught the Dhamma,
I lent an ear to get the meaning.

My listening wasn’t wasted:
I’m freed, without defilements.”

“Not for knowledge of past lives,
nor even for clairvoyance;
not for psychic powers, or reading the minds of others,
nor for knowing people’s passing away and being reborn;
not for purifying the power of clairaudience,
did I have any wish.”

“His only shelter is the foot of a tree;
shaven, wrapped in his outer robe,
the senior monk foremost in wisdom,
Upatissa himself practices absorption.

Entering meditation without thought,
a disciple of the Buddha
is at that moment blessed
with noble silence.

  • thag 17

Fyi, noble silence is referring to second jhana, and monks were instructed to maintain noble silence.

The suttas state that non-return requires jhana 1-4 mastery, let alone Arahantship.

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The buddha asked you to enter second jhana only if you don’t discuss any teaching

“Good, mendicants! It’s appropriate for gentlemen like you, who have gone forth in faith from the lay life to homelessness, to sit together and talk about the teaching. When you’re sitting together you should do one of two things: discuss the teachings or keep noble silence.

There are 3 non jhana ways to reach enlightenment doesn’t mean you can not use jhana to attain enlightenment

It’s like if person A tells you that he went to your home using taxi if person B don’t tell you anything yet he is in your home now you should not assume he used taxi too because there are other ways

Is it correct?

Suppose not all the mendicants can attain the second jhāna. What should they do in this case?

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Just maintain ignoble silence :no_bell:

OK, so we can add this one to the Buddha’s words :slight_smile:

Ignoble silence is very different from noble silence that would mean you don’t heed the buddha you disobey his words atleast that is how I understand it

I guess if we can’t do 2nd jhana buddha implicitly instructed us to discuss dhamma since that’s the only option

Exactly, in the second jhana one experiences noble silence. One who is still at a very low stage of Samma Samadhi would not attain second jhana. But he is amidst the Sangha; he should not disturb others by making various talks. The only thing he has to do is to be silent, just ignoble silence.

Instead they should discuss dhamma remember there’s no third option, the option are either dhamma discuss or 2nd jhana

But noble silence is not only the second jhāna or higher jhānas. Is it right?

The Buddha wouldn not use the term impossible then

“Mendicants, it’s totally impossible that a mendicant who enjoys company and groups, who loves them and likes to enjoy them, should take pleasure in being alone in seclusion. Without taking pleasure in being alone in seclusion, it’s impossible to learn the patterns of the mind. Without learning the patterns of the mind, it’s impossible to fulfill right view. Without fulfilling right view, it’s impossible to fulfill right immersion. Without fulfilling right immersion, it’s impossible to give up the fetters. Without giving up the fetters, it’s impossible to realize extinguishment.

  • AN 6.68

You can’t destroy fetters and attain nibbana without jhanas.

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Right immersion can be ekaggata + 7 factors, right immersion is not only jhana

Mendicants, there are these seven prerequisites for immersion. What seven? Right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness. Unification of mind with these seven factors as prerequisites is called noble right immersion ‘with its vital conditions’ and ‘with its prerequisites’.

Notice there are no piti and sukha there ,in jhana simile those are the focus not the ekaggata

I think it’s much better using negation instead of using affirmation

Instead of saying with jhana you can attain enlightenment you will be convinced if there is a sutta that said without jhana you cant attain enlightenment

So here it is

This teaching is for those with immersion, not those without immersion.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? It’s for a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption. ‘This teaching is for those with immersion, not those without immersion.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.

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How long should a jhana last, to be a jhana?

The suttas say even the length of a finger snap counts

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yes. This old problem is quite a confussion when a jhana sometimes can be fulfilled and embedded into the path of fruits as another moment difficult to review, except for higher ariyas.

At least I believe something similar happens in example, inside AN 6.46, in where a senior disciple of the Buddha should stop a discussion between two different types of disciples who were criticizing the practice of the other. Both were groups of newbies or just stream-enterers. At the end the senior disciple said:

“That is not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, nor for the welfare & happiness of human & divine beings […] Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world,”

AN 6.46

It does not need to repeat that words again within the context (i.e. SN 45.28 within the SN 45. Magga Samyutta):

"At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you noble right concentration with its supports and its accessories. Listen to that….
“And what, bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its supports and its accessories? There are: right view … right mindfulness. The one-pointedness of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration ‘with its supports,’ and also ‘with its accessories.’” "

Also, it is about “noble right concentration (sammasamadhi) with its supports and its accessories”, not about jhana (samadhi) itself.

It’s very simple people. There are many meanings to noble silence. In this context, it’s saying literally not talking externally. (Noble means not stupid; if there’s danger, do tell).

Noble silence to refer to 2nd Jhana means internally, no more initial and sustained application. No will.

I sometimes wonder if this ignoring that words can have 2 meanings is done intentionally as a joke to find something to have fun discussing.

You are referring to silence not noble silence that’s very different

As you wish, if you wish to engage in useless interpretations which brings difficulty and trouble instead of using common sense.

Do you have sutta that said noble silence can mean not talking externally without mind silence ?