As stated earlier, the four immeasurables, aka brahma viharas, are jhanas, hence they lead to rebirth in the brahma planes, which attaining jhana is required to be reborn there.
@Thito, we are talking about the ways, not about the destinations? right?
If they are the same, counting ā¦ ohā¦ there are only 7 doors! not 11 doors as in the sutta. Some thing wrong here
Anything that is higher than first jhana is noble silence since buddha here refers to the silencing of thoughts as the noble in noble silence
The math said 11 not 7 doors
Because thereās 3 ways to enter first jhana, by developing the perception of renunciation (which is the default), perception of good will, and the perception of harmlessness. You develop depending on which unskillful perception is strongest. If you develop perception of good will then you enter jhanas via brahma viharas.
āMendicants, there are these three things. What three? Sensual, malicious, and cruel perceptions. These are the three things. To give up these three things you should develop three things. What three? You should develop perceptions of renunciation to give up sensual perceptions, perceptions of good will to give up malicious perceptions, and perceptions of harmlessness to give up cruel perceptions. These are the three things you should develop to give up those three things.ā
As stated earlier, you canāt attain jhana as long as you have the 3 unskillful perceptions.
Yes, you can enter 1st jhÄna from mettÄ, but mettÄ itself is not 1st jhÄnaā¦
Metta vitakka (thoughts) is not the same as immeasurable release.
The Desama sutta which references the 11 gates is referencing mettÄcetovimutti
Limitless mind means spreading jhana energy in 6 directions.
To have an Limitless mind you need to already attain jhana.
You can see in the suttas, mettÄcetovimutti is usually in between the form jhanas and formless jhanas
āFor insight into greed, eleven things should be developed. āRÄgassa, bhikkhave, abhiƱƱÄya ekÄdasa dhammÄ bhÄvetabbÄ. What eleven? Katame ekÄdasa? The first, second, third, and fourth absorptions; the heartās releases by love, compassion, rejoicing, and equanimity; the dimensions of infinite space, infinite consciousness, and nothingness.
- AN 11.982
mettÄcetovimutti requires jhanas
And how is the heartās release by love developed? What is its destination, apex, fruit, and end? Kathaį¹ bhÄvitÄ ca, bhikkhave, mettÄcetovimutti, kiį¹ gatikÄ hoti, kiį¹paramÄ, kiį¹phalÄ, kiį¹pariyosÄnÄ?
Itās when a mendicant develops the heartās release by love together with the awakening factors of mindfulness, investigation of principles, energy, rapture, tranquility, immersion, Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu mettÄsahagataį¹ satisambojjhaį¹ gaį¹ bhÄveti ā¦peā¦ and equanimity, which rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go.
-sn 46.54
I donāt see it in the sutta you have quoted.
Here again 11 doors
Yes, 11 doors, but they all depend on attaining jhanas firstā¦ jhanas are the lowest doors, then the mettÄcetovimutti, karunacetovimutti, etcā¦ and then the formless ayatanasā¦
which means you need to have jhanas minimumā¦
Read the sutta SN 46.54 which explains the 11 doors in detail
Are you sure that 1st jhÄna leads to mettÄ, but not mettÄ leads to 1st jhÄna? (mettÄ = mettÄcetovimuti)
āMendicants, you can expect eleven benefits when the heartās release by love has been cultivated, developed, and practiced, made a vehicle and a basis, kept up, consolidated, and properly implemented.
What eleven? sleep at ease. You wake happily. You donāt have bad dreams. Humans love you. Non-humans love you. Deities protect you. You canāt be harmed by fire, poison, or blade. Your mind quickly enters immersionā¦.
AN11.15
Metta vitakka/vicara gets rid of ill will perception which can lead to first jhana
However the 11 gates/doors refers to mettÄcetovimutti.
From the dasama sutta it says seeing the impermanence of the mettÄcetovimutti is a door
Even this heartās release by love is produced by choices and intentions.ā āayampi kho mettÄcetovimutti abhisaį¹ khatÄ abhisaƱcetayitÄ.
To attain mettÄcetovimutti you need jhanas.
And how is the heartās release by love developed? What is its destination, apex, fruit, and end? Itās when a mendicant develops the heartās release by love together with the awakening factors of mindfulness, investigation of principles, energy, rapture, tranquility, immersion, and equanimity, which rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go.
- SN 46.54
@Thito, this sutta talk about developing mettÄcetovimutti together with the awakening factors, by that one can reach not only 1st jhana, but ā¦ the beautiful.
as for mettÄcetovimutti is only lead to 1st jhÄna instead of the beautiful
Yes because mettÄcetovimutti weakens the fetters, thus the 5 hindrances are weaker, and thus you can attain jhanas faster.
A mindful one who develops
limitless love
weakens the fetters,
seeing the ending of attachment
- Iti 27
That means mettÄcetovimutti first and jhÄna later. Right?
It means jhanas/mettÄcetovimutti first, which weakens the fetters, and then jhanas/mettÄcetovimutti easier. Probably because you attain once-return which weakens the fetters of sensual desire and ill will.
Thereās a sutta that says the more you execute the noble eightfold path, the more you attain.
When you attain, you weaken or destroy fetters, which makes re-attaining easier as you have less hindrances to overcome.
By the same logic, the sutta can say the NibbÄna is good for the 1st jhÄna. So we need to develop NibbÄna, because āYour mind quickly enters immersionā.
By the way, thank you for your time! @Thito .
I donāt understand what youāre saying. Nibbana is attained when one sees that even the best states are Impermanent and therefore not good enough, and so they turn their mind away from those states and towards the Nibbana-element.
And what, Änanda, is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters? Itās when a mendicantādue to the seclusion from attachments, the giving up of unskillful qualities, and the complete settling of physical discomfortāquite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. They contemplate the phenomena thereāincluded in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousnessāas impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element: āThis is peaceful; this is sublimeāthat is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation, extinguishment.ā Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they donāt attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters theyāre reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. This is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters.
- mn 64
Letās go this way ā¦
- One need to remove 5 hindrances to enter 1st jhÄna. (right jhÄna by @Thito )
- ill will is one from hindrances.
- to abandon ill will one need to develop mettaį¹ cetovimutti.
and here Thito saidā¦
- one need to have 1st jhÄna to have mettaį¹ cetovimutti.
Then we have closed cycle, without jhÄna one left without mettaį¹ cetovimutti, without mettaį¹ cetovimutti one cannot abandon ill will, with ill will as one from hindrances one cannot enter 1st jhÄna.
āMendicants, I do not see a single thing that prevents ill will from arising, or, when it has arisen, abandons it like the heartās release by love.
āNÄhaį¹, bhikkhave, aƱƱaį¹ ekadhammampi samanupassÄmi yena anuppanno vÄ byÄpÄdo nuppajjati uppanno vÄ byÄpÄdo pahÄ«yati yathayidaį¹, bhikkhave, mettÄ cetovimutti.
1.2 When you attend properly on the heartās release by love, ill will does not arise, or, if it has already arisen, itās given up.ā
Mettaį¹, bhikkhave, cetovimuttiį¹ yoniso manasi karoto anuppanno ceva byÄpÄdo nuppajjati uppanno ca byÄpÄdo pahÄ«yatÄ«āti.
mettaį¹ cetovimuttiį¹ is here ā¦ to abandon ill will, ill will exists mean one is not in jhÄna. Not yet.
Actually, itās putting attention on the property of good will that leads to overcoming ill-will.
And what fuels the arising of ill will, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow? There is the feature of harshness. Frequent improper attention to that fuels the arising of ill will, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow.
Itās cutting off bad thoughts and replacing them with good thoughts that leads to development of good will.
And how do thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness arise for a reason, not without reason? The element of renunciation gives rise to perceptions of renunciation. Perceptions of renunciation give rise to thoughts of renunciation. Thoughts of renunciation give rise to enthusiasm for renunciation. Enthusiasm for renunciation gives rise to fervor for renunciation. Fervor for renunciation gives rise to the search for renunciation. An educated noble disciple on a search for renunciation behaves well in three ways: by body, speech, and mind.
The element of good will gives rise to perceptions of good will. Perceptions of good will give rise to thoughts of good will. ā¦ enthusiasm for good will ā¦ fervor for good will ā¦ the search for good will. An educated noble disciple on a search for good will behaves well in three ways: by body, speech, and mind.
- sn14.12
The 5 hindrances are already given up before mettacetovimutti, as why would you spread a heart/mind full of ill-will in all directions? You want to spread a pure mind/heart, not a corrupted mind/heart.
āReverends, the ascetic Gotama teaches his disciples like this: āCome, mendicants, give up these five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom, and meditate spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth.