I don't think (hard)jhana is needed to attain nibbana

As stated earlier, the four immeasurables, aka brahma viharas, are jhanas, hence they lead to rebirth in the brahma planes, which attaining jhana is required to be reborn there.

@Thito, we are talking about the ways, not about the destinations? right?
If they are the same, counting ā€¦ ohā€¦ there are only 7 doors! not 11 doors as in the sutta. Some thing wrong here :slight_smile:

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Anything that is higher than first jhana is noble silence since buddha here refers to the silencing of thoughts as the noble in noble silence

The math said 11 not 7 doors

Because thereā€™s 3 ways to enter first jhana, by developing the perception of renunciation (which is the default), perception of good will, and the perception of harmlessness. You develop depending on which unskillful perception is strongest. If you develop perception of good will then you enter jhanas via brahma viharas.

ā€œMendicants, there are these three things. What three? Sensual, malicious, and cruel perceptions. These are the three things. To give up these three things you should develop three things. What three? You should develop perceptions of renunciation to give up sensual perceptions, perceptions of good will to give up malicious perceptions, and perceptions of harmlessness to give up cruel perceptions. These are the three things you should develop to give up those three things.ā€

As stated earlier, you canā€™t attain jhana as long as you have the 3 unskillful perceptions.

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Yes, you can enter 1st jhāna from mettā, but mettā itself is not 1st jhānaā€¦

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Metta vitakka (thoughts) is not the same as immeasurable release.

The Desama sutta which references the 11 gates is referencing mettācetovimutti

Limitless mind means spreading jhana energy in 6 directions.

To have an Limitless mind you need to already attain jhana.

You can see in the suttas, mettācetovimutti is usually in between the form jhanas and formless jhanas

ā€œFor insight into greed, eleven things should be developed. ā€œRāgassa, bhikkhave, abhiƱƱāya ekādasa dhammā bhāvetabbā. What eleven? Katame ekādasa? The first, second, third, and fourth absorptions; the heartā€™s releases by love, compassion, rejoicing, and equanimity; the dimensions of infinite space, infinite consciousness, and nothingness.

  • AN 11.982

mettācetovimutti requires jhanas

And how is the heartā€™s release by love developed? What is its destination, apex, fruit, and end? Kathaį¹ bhāvitā ca, bhikkhave, mettācetovimutti, kiį¹…gatikā hoti, kiį¹paramā, kiį¹phalā, kiį¹pariyosānā?

Itā€™s when a mendicant develops the heartā€™s release by love together with the awakening factors of mindfulness, investigation of principles, energy, rapture, tranquility, immersion, Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu mettāsahagataį¹ satisambojjhaį¹…gaį¹ bhāveti ā€¦peā€¦ and equanimity, which rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go.

-sn 46.54

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I donā€™t see it in the sutta you have quoted.

Here again 11 doors :slight_smile:

Yes, 11 doors, but they all depend on attaining jhanas firstā€¦ jhanas are the lowest doors, then the mettācetovimutti, karunacetovimutti, etcā€¦ and then the formless ayatanasā€¦

which means you need to have jhanas minimumā€¦

Read the sutta SN 46.54 which explains the 11 doors in detail

Are you sure that 1st jhāna leads to mettā, but not mettā leads to 1st jhāna? (mettā = mettācetovimuti)

ā€œMendicants, you can expect eleven benefits when the heartā€™s release by love has been cultivated, developed, and practiced, made a vehicle and a basis, kept up, consolidated, and properly implemented.

What eleven? sleep at ease. You wake happily. You donā€™t have bad dreams. Humans love you. Non-humans love you. Deities protect you. You canā€™t be harmed by fire, poison, or blade. Your mind quickly enters immersionā€¦.

AN11.15

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Metta vitakka/vicara gets rid of ill will perception which can lead to first jhana

However the 11 gates/doors refers to mettācetovimutti.

From the dasama sutta it says seeing the impermanence of the mettācetovimutti is a door

Even this heartā€™s release by love is produced by choices and intentions.ā€™ ā€˜ayampi kho mettācetovimutti abhisaį¹…khatā abhisaƱcetayitā.

To attain mettācetovimutti you need jhanas.

And how is the heartā€™s release by love developed? What is its destination, apex, fruit, and end? Itā€™s when a mendicant develops the heartā€™s release by love together with the awakening factors of mindfulness, investigation of principles, energy, rapture, tranquility, immersion, and equanimity, which rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go.

  • SN 46.54

@Thito, this sutta talk about developing mettācetovimutti together with the awakening factors, by that one can reach not only 1st jhana, but ā€¦ the beautiful.

as for mettācetovimutti is only lead to 1st jhāna instead of the beautiful

Yes because mettācetovimutti weakens the fetters, thus the 5 hindrances are weaker, and thus you can attain jhanas faster.

A mindful one who develops
limitless love
weakens the fetters,
seeing the ending of attachment

  • Iti 27
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That means mettācetovimutti first and jhāna later. Right?

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It means jhanas/mettācetovimutti first, which weakens the fetters, and then jhanas/mettācetovimutti easier. Probably because you attain once-return which weakens the fetters of sensual desire and ill will.

Thereā€™s a sutta that says the more you execute the noble eightfold path, the more you attain.

When you attain, you weaken or destroy fetters, which makes re-attaining easier as you have less hindrances to overcome.

By the same logic, the sutta can say the Nibbāna is good for the 1st jhāna. So we need to develop Nibbāna, because ā€œYour mind quickly enters immersionā€.

By the way, thank you for your time! @Thito .

I donā€™t understand what youā€™re saying. Nibbana is attained when one sees that even the best states are Impermanent and therefore not good enough, and so they turn their mind away from those states and towards the Nibbana-element.

And what, Ānanda, is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters? Itā€™s when a mendicantā€”due to the seclusion from attachments, the giving up of unskillful qualities, and the complete settling of physical discomfortā€”quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. They contemplate the phenomena thereā€”included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousnessā€”as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element: ā€˜This is peaceful; this is sublimeā€”that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation, extinguishment.ā€™ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they donā€™t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters theyā€™re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. This is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters.

  • mn 64

Letā€™s go this way ā€¦

  1. One need to remove 5 hindrances to enter 1st jhāna. (right jhāna by @Thito :slight_smile: )
  2. ill will is one from hindrances.
  3. to abandon ill will one need to develop mettaį¹ cetovimutti.

and here Thito saidā€¦

  1. one need to have 1st jhāna to have mettaį¹ cetovimutti.

Then we have closed cycle, without jhāna one left without mettaį¹ cetovimutti, without mettaį¹ cetovimutti one cannot abandon ill will, with ill will as one from hindrances one cannot enter 1st jhāna.

ā€œMendicants, I do not see a single thing that prevents ill will from arising, or, when it has arisen, abandons it like the heartā€™s release by love.
ā€œNāhaį¹, bhikkhave, aƱƱaį¹ ekadhammampi samanupassāmi yena anuppanno vā byāpādo nuppajjati uppanno vā byāpādo pahÄ«yati yathayidaį¹, bhikkhave, mettā cetovimutti.
1.2 When you attend properly on the heartā€™s release by love, ill will does not arise, or, if it has already arisen, itā€™s given up.ā€
Mettaį¹, bhikkhave, cetovimuttiį¹ yoniso manasi karoto anuppanno ceva byāpādo nuppajjati uppanno ca byāpādo pahÄ«yatÄ«ā€ti.

mettaį¹ cetovimuttiį¹ is here ā€¦ to abandon ill will, ill will exists mean one is not in jhāna. Not yet.

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Actually, itā€™s putting attention on the property of good will that leads to overcoming ill-will.

And what fuels the arising of ill will, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow? There is the feature of harshness. Frequent improper attention to that fuels the arising of ill will, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow.

Itā€™s cutting off bad thoughts and replacing them with good thoughts that leads to development of good will.

And how do thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness arise for a reason, not without reason? The element of renunciation gives rise to perceptions of renunciation. Perceptions of renunciation give rise to thoughts of renunciation. Thoughts of renunciation give rise to enthusiasm for renunciation. Enthusiasm for renunciation gives rise to fervor for renunciation. Fervor for renunciation gives rise to the search for renunciation. An educated noble disciple on a search for renunciation behaves well in three ways: by body, speech, and mind.
The element of good will gives rise to perceptions of good will. Perceptions of good will give rise to thoughts of good will. ā€¦ enthusiasm for good will ā€¦ fervor for good will ā€¦ the search for good will. An educated noble disciple on a search for good will behaves well in three ways: by body, speech, and mind.

  • sn14.12

The 5 hindrances are already given up before mettacetovimutti, as why would you spread a heart/mind full of ill-will in all directions? You want to spread a pure mind/heart, not a corrupted mind/heart.

ā€œReverends, the ascetic Gotama teaches his disciples like this: ā€˜Come, mendicants, give up these five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom, and meditate spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth.

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