If during his human life the Buddha did not experience parinibbana, how did he know that parinibbana was possible?

The Watercooler
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Hi

Parinibbana is nibbana without residue after death. Realizing parinibbana means no more karmic consequences, no more aggregates, etc.

To realize parinibbana, you must therefore be a dead arahant.

The Buddha was therefore unable to realize parinibbana during his human life.

If he didn’t realize parinibbana in his human life, how could he have known of the possibility of parinibbana in his human life? It wasn’t a direct knowledge of parinibbana, only a conceptual understanding?

Thanks in advance

May all beings be benevolent

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Just a theory: In the night of his enlightenment, he could remember his many many past lives and also could see other’s past lives. Therefore, he saw parinibbāna of many many previous Buddhas and also parinibbāna of many many previous noble disciplines. Finally, with the destruction of defilements exactly same as others, he knows for himself, he will reach the parinibbāna exactly same as others before.

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Maybe this refers to knowledge of how rebirth works in this life and after death (PS). Seeing the builder of the house or home for oneself (Dhp152). This can be seen in this very life, i believe. One can see in this very life that there is a builder of the house. There is something that builds in this very life the angry mindset, the greedy, the conceited, the dull, the friendly, the optimistic, dark mindset etc.

It is due to grasping arising tendencies, drifts, emotions, desires. If this ends, mind does not make a home anymore for itself. In normal daily language: we do not jump anymore from one mindset to the other: From being jalous, to being angry, to being arrogant, to being lustfull and greedy, to being friendly to being unfriendly. It is normal that the grasping mind builds all the time these mindsets, those temporary bhava. What builds the house?

Buddha’s mind was, like Dhp152 says ‘set on demolition’, meaning, this building of a house must end (se above verse). I believe it shows an understanding of purity, of the meaninglessness of this constant building process. Often you also notice that entering a certain mindset is: uncontrolled, it is like you are helpless, it is also like you are not self. For example, take someone who is always optimistic…people can see this as nice but almost all people understand that it is forced and not really self, in the meaning of not authentic. Fabricated. Complex. While the mind without mindset is very sober, not complex at all, unfabricated.

If the mind does not build a house or home anymore the only things that ceases in this life is the burden of uncontrolled development of mind, the burden of any mindset, the burden that any mindset will desintegrate, the burden of instability, the burden of not self.

The mind that does not build up or produce a certain mindset is stable. It does jump from mindset to mindset.
Ud8.2 refers to it, i think. This mind has at this point no inclinations anymore. Latent tendencies are dismantled, drifts, instincts all has come the an end.

So, where can it go to? This mind? How can the mind build up a house without inclinations? If there is nothing that can drive mind into a new bhava, uncontrolled, in this life and after life, then one probably knows, the task is done, there is no more rebirth etc. Because, where must this mind go and what does drive it to that?

Probably we first have to know this uninclined before we also have understanding of the nature of parinibbana.

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This topic was recently discussed here

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Because of the nibanna?

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So it wasn’t a direct experience, but through indirect meditative perception? So he could have been fooled by a false perception ?

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By realising the unconditioned……Nibbana, one already knows.

…… that is why it is termed as a “foretaste”.

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Hi! I made the same question some months ago on the forum as pointed out by Viveka. I unfortunately didn’t find any answer based solely on the EBTs that could explicitly justify experiential knowledge of parinibbana. On the one hand, if you base yourself only on the EBTs, parinibbana seems to be indeed a deduction from the Buddha’s understanding of rebirth and DO. However, since his knowledge of the workings of these comes from direct insight, his conclusion was valid and virtually certain. On the other hand, Classical Theravada seems to answer the question by saying that at the moment of enlightenment consciousness apprehends nibbana.

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My intuitive hunch is that, the Buddha was a body witness (kayasakkhi) at the highest level of jhana and nibbana, that there is no further becoming after ending of all three types of craving and ignorance.

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When you put a requirement as “direct experience” to “parinibbāna” (which by definition: can only be talked about after the “death” of an arahant), I suppose that you were running into a kind of dilemma like: If the Buddha has not “direct experienced” and he can’t lie, so, he can’t claim about “parinibbāna”. On the other hand, if the Buddha had really direct experienced “parinibbāna”, then he is already so called “surely dead”, it will be impossible for him to claim anything after “surely dead”.

I have given you a “theory” which is: the Buddha really “direct experienced” the “parinibbāna”, but it’s not his “parinibbāna”, instead, he “direct experienced” the “parinibbāna” of many many previous Buddhas and many many previous noble disciplines. This is due to the awakening of his first two powers: the power to see unlimitedly into his past lives and the power to see unlimitedly into other past lives’s kamma. These two powers are “direct experienced”, these are not conceptual understanding.

Finally, with the awakening of his 3rd power: he see for himself the destruction of all defilements, again, this 3rd power is not conceptual understanding.

As I said, because he already had “direct experienced” that so many many previous Buddhas and so many many noble disciplines with the destruction of all defilements have “entered into” parinibbāna, combining that with his also “direct experienced” of his 3rd power, he comes to concrete conclusion: he will surely enter into parinibbāna after “death”.

If you ask yourself this question: “Will I die?”. Even though you don’t have “direct experience” of death for yourself, do you know with 100% certainty that you will die? I think anyone with a reasonable mind will have to answer with 100% certainty that: “Yes, I will die”.

The next question is: “How do you know? You don’t have “direct experience” of your own death, right?”. Again, I think anyone with a reasonable mind will have to answer that “I see everyone around me die and because I am not so different from everyone else, I will die too”

Now, if you compare with the “direct experience” of the Buddha due to his 3 powers, you can see that his certainty is even greater than your 100% certainty about “I will die”. The reason is: He directly experienced his own death for so many many past lives.

Again, if you compare with the “direct experience” of the Buddha due to his 3 powers, you can see that his certainty is even greater than your 100% certainty about “I will die”. The reason is: He directly experienced other’s parinibbāna for so many many past lives.

Again, if you compare with the “direct experience” of the Buddha due to his 3 powers, you can see that his certainty is even greater than your 100% certainty about “I will die”. The reason is: He directly experienced his own destruction of defilement, he is no different from previous Buddha, therefore, similar to your own reasoning with 100% certainty “I see everyone around me die and because I am not so different from everyone else, I will die too”, he can come to conclusion with 100% certainty: “I see everyone around me with destruction of defilement entered into parinibbāna and because I am not different from these people, I will also enter into parinibbāna”

I hope that I have answered to your question that it was really a direct experience and the Buddha’s conclusion is even more certain than your own conclusion that “I will die”. If you haven’t directly experienced these 3 powers by yourself, I think, it’s too hasty from your part to come to such a conclusion as “that is indirect meditative perception”.

Anyway, as I said in the beginning, this is just a theory, no matter how soundly, logically, completely or coherently a theory is, we still can’t accurately say what belongs to the Buddha’s domain (just a quick reminder of Acinteyyasutta AN 4.77)

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I see, you really think he’s experiencing exactly the parinnibbana of other Buddhas.
But parinibbana is definitive: if the Buddha experiences the parinnibbana of another arahant, then the Buddha can never again come out of the experience of the arahant’s parinnibbana. Now, it seems that in his life, the Buddha is not constantly experiencing the parinnibbana of other Buddhas. So he cannot have experienced the parinibbana of other Buddhas before his death.

he will surely enter into parinibbāna after “death”.

So it’s conceptual reasoning, not direct experience.

If you ask yourself this question: “Will I die?”. Even though you don’t have “direct experience” of death for yourself, do you know with 100% certainty that you will die? I think anyone with a reasonable mind will have to answer with 100% certainty that: “Yes, I will die”.

A reasonable person would say “99.999%”, because there’s always a chance we’re wrong. Saying 100% means we’re totally eliminating the possibility that we’re not going to die. There’s no reason to have this absolute level of confidence. There’s always a chance of being wrong, even if it’s 0.0000000000001%.

you can see that his certainty is even greater than your 100% certainty about “I will die”.

I don’t understand how you can have a confidence rate greater than 100%. For example, does it make sense to say that there’s a 101% chance?

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Buddhas attain Omniscience.

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…… The deathless: MN 140:

… the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die.

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If you cut down a tree, do you expect the tree to grow? Yes some types of trees continue to grow while others don’t. If you have fully terminated the possibility of further growth(existence), it becomes a moot point whether the tree will grow again someday. Although you haven’t fully experienced this, you can be fully confident that the tree won’t grow.

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You probably want to check all Nibbana keyword in Sutta such as AN 11.7.

‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, NIbbana.’

‘etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ, yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.

Stilling of All Sankharas can be found in SN 41.6 or refer to DO in SN 12.2.

When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear.

or free of Moha, lobha and dosa in simple short way. So if there 3 activities are stilled one is closed to Nibbana or already there eventually.

More over there is deva and others of his disciple that confirm the same experience like how he taught.

how? Well follow the N8FP.

Buddha show the problem and solution in 4NT. Everyone that follow gain Nibbana here and now.

Btw even a non returner hasn’t fully grasp about Nibbana, so, how can a regular folk can understand different between Nibbana or Parinibbana. It is like a baby try to understand university class. Why not follow and confirm it. SN 48.42

… This question goes too far, brahmin! You weren’t able to grasp the limit of questioning.
For extinguishment is the culmination, destination, and end of the spiritual life.”

…If he were to pass away at this time, he would be bound by no fetter that might return him to this world. (non returner)”

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Yes, this might show that there is more to our lives then perception and feeling and more to our lives then formations or processes.

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I have given you an example of “your own death” in my previous post but it seems that you haven’t understood that example yet. You can argue that you don’t directly experience your own death but do you directly see other people’s death around you? That “directly see” is “the most direct experience possible” for you. Similarly, the Buddha with his 3 awakening powers, he “directly saw” the parinibbāna of ∞ previous Buddhas and ∞ previous noble disciplines, that “directly saw” was his “direct experience” in this case.

No, it really is direct experience as I was trying to explained so far. Please re-read what I said carefully.

You don’t understand because you didn’t see that I didn’t write “100% certainty”, instead, I wrote “your 100% certainty” (which you confirmed below that it was less than 100%).

I think you have pinpointed the real origin of this so-called dilemma that you are trying to bring up: Doubt. In other words, you don’t have yet that 100% confidence of knowledge that “I will die”.

Maybe you can open a new topic regarding that doubt and hopefully other people will be able to give you something that you can finally accept as 100% truth. This truth is best described with “yaṁ kiñci samudayadhammaṁ sabbaṁ taṁ nirodhadhamman”ti

Without resolving that doubt first, both you and I will only waste our time discussing this topic any further. Even Acinteyyasutta AN 4.77 can’t settle it because of such deeply ingrained doubt that is still unresolved.

Therefore, I will stop right here. :pray:

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Namo Buddhaya!

It is a very good question.

The Truthfinders know that with the breakup of the body all modes of being will be extinguished with no more fuel for a future because of two things;

  1. They have entered into & emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.
  2. They have destroyed all relishing of the conditioned.

All who enter into & emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling do so by directing the mind away from the constructed [sankhata], away from form, away from consciousness, away from perception, away from feeling, away from constructs [sankhara] - they direct it towards the deathless, towards extinguishment.

Entering into is discerned in course of the progressive cessation: first cease the verbal constructs, then cease the physical constructs and at last cease the mental constructs.

At that time they perceive thus: ‘Cessation [nirodha] of existence [bhava] is extinguishment [nibbana].’

For one entering into & emerging from such attainment one perception arises and another perception ceases; only dukkha arises - only dukkha ceases.

Just as in a blazing fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, they are percipient thus: ‘The cessation of existence is extinguishment, the cessation of existence is extinguishment’. One perception arises for them and another perception ceases; only dukkha arises - only dukkha ceases.

Buddhas teach only dukkha and it’s cessation.

Thus they discern the cessation of dukkha as an escape from dukkha which is the dukkhanirodha there.

While absorbed in dependence on the nirodhadhatu the thought doesn’t occur to them ‘May i emerge from the attainment of cessation’ or ‘I am emerging from the attainment of cessation’. Rather It is because of how the mind was developed prior to entering into the attainment that emergence occurs, due to a prior act of will.

Emergence from the attainment is discerned as the arising of constructs - first the mental constructs, then physical constructs and consequently verbal constructs arise.

They understand that the entering into & emerging only go in as far as heat goes, in as far as faculties go, in as far as living goes, and that with the breakup of the body all not being relished will grow cold right there.

Thus they understand that due to not relishing their mind’s release is unshakable & unprovoked, that this is the final body and that with it’s breakup all modes of existence will be abandoned with no more fuel for a future - a final extinguishment.

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I do not know if it is true but i hope it is :slight_smile:

The question is: are all arahants able to enter cessation of perception and feeling? In other words, is this the only way out?

It seems the sutta’s suggest as answer: no. I also believe that cessation an sich does not perse lead to uprooting of asava’s. Whatever state, there seems to be always a disclaimer involved: seeing with wisdom. That seems the be the only real cause for the ending of defilements and never abiding in this or that state an sich.

I think what you describe is the Path of Progressive Stilling and not everybody has this talent. But also without this talent, the sutta’s seem to describe one can attain Nibbana, probably because not-relishing the conditioned is also possible in a very normal state of mind, just daily mind.

Do you believe the stilling of all formations is something that is produced or is it unproduced, or?

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I teach that let alone arahants, all stream-enterers have attained nirodha because there is no removal of the three lower fetters without directing the mind to the deathless, the cessation which is the stilling of all constructs, nibbana.

“There is a path, Ānanda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that someone, by relying on that path, on that way, shall know and see and abandon the five lower fetters—this is possible. Just as, when there is a great tree standing possessed of heartwood, it is possible that someone shall cut out its heartwood by cutting through its bark and sapwood, so too, there is a path…this is possible.
…
“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints.

I quoted Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation of mn 64, omitting the part of attaining the jhana.

The interpretation of this passage is controversial because it gets at what it means to have attained ‘a seeing with discernment by which defilements are removed’. It is controversial because there exist two contradictory pali versions of kitagiri sutta;

  • And what person is a follower of teachings? It’s a person who doesn’t have direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. Nevertheless, having seen with wisdom, some of their defilements have come to an end. And they accept the teachings proclaimed by the Realized One after considering them with a degree of wisdom.
    …
    And what person is a follower by faith? It’s a person who doesn’t have direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. Nevertheless, having seen with wisdom, some of their defilements have come to an end. And they have a degree of faith and love for the Realized One. https://suttacentral.net/mn70/en/sujato

  • "And what is the individual who is a Dhamma-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But with a [sufficient] measure of reflection through discernment he has come to an agreement with the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata.
    …
    "And what is the individual who is a conviction-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But he has a [sufficient] measure of conviction in & love for the Tathagata. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html

They are translating correctly but there exist two different versions of pali:

  • Version 1: paññāya cassa disvā ekacce āsavā parikkhīṇā honti SuttaCentral

  • Version 2: paññāya cassa disvā āsavā aparikkhīṇā1 honti
    MN I_utf8

The implications of this are immense.

In short

Some people think that directing the mind to the deathless means inclining towards it, as in merely thinking 'The constructed is bad, it should not be, it will not be, it shouldn’t occur. Deathless is good, the stilling is good, nibbana is good. ’ They hold that this very training is a seeing with discernment by which taints are removed.

Whereas others hold that having trained in this way one eventually attains a seeing with discernment which is essentially a noble attainment of samadhi in dependence on the asankhata, a cessation attainment by which taints are removed.

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