But you must know no one is claiming jhanas are experiences without sensation?
The argument is that it’s the mental bliss that’s the sensation (including vitakka & vicara which is subtle mental movement in this line of reasoning)
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LOL! I will take this to mean that you are not interested in any further discussion. Which, of course, is perfectly fine!
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A fair assumption, but actually i was being hyperbolic as i often am when excited.
But ive said my bit, so will return to other projects.
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Thank you for this message Venerable!
A priori, it seems to me that indeed, even for pro sense jhana, from the second jhāna, there are no more thoughts. Your sutta therefore seems to refute sense jhana.
I’m very interested in any replies you might get from the pro sense jhana (please, if you support these sense jhanas, feel free to reply!).
To me, this subject is important. Therefore, it’s vital that I speak as accurately and clearly as I can. I cannot afford to do any less, even if I may be judged poorly for it.
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Venerable, 
I don’t really mind you voicing your thoughts aloud. But if you want to speak accurately and clearly, then maybe you can explain why it “is a very poor translation for evaṁbhūto”. I already gave an example where a compound ending in -bhūto refers to something that happened in the past and has ended, namely: “For in the past, venerable sir, when I was still a householder (agārika-bhūto)". (SN46.30) Why is it impossible for evaṃbhūto to have a same sense of past?
He thinks the phrase is a bit ambiguous and best translated in a way that doesn’t import too much meaning: “Following my usual ‘principle of least meaning’ we should avoid creating dramatic or difficult meanings out of simple or ambiguous terms.” (AN3.63 walking in 4th jhana? - #5 by sujato)
See also:
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The bhūto in this example is conveyed in English as “was”. Using this example as a template to translate evaṃbhūto, we get “when I was thus” (which I think is even better than B.Bodhi’s “when I am in such a state”).
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That’s a possible interpretation, and I’m happy to drop “state” from the translation, which isn’t in the Pali. So it is an improvement on Ven. Bodhi’s translation, in my opinion. But when glossing evaṃbhūto, the commentary to AN3.63 interprets it more as a perfect past, not a simple past (i.e. “having been” (hutvā) rather than “was”), which is also definitely possible. (Meaning having been in jhanas, afterwards you’re walking.)
Since this is I think the only sutta where there is an indication to walking in jhanas, and since in the sutta itself the Buddha actually says he sits down before he enters jhāna, I think the commentary is more likely to be correct. Also because I can’t see how one could walk without breathing, in the fourth jhana.
Bhante Sujato’s translation is a middle way which let’s us read it both ways. I don’t think it is all that poor, considering. If he wanted to reflect his own view, then he could have done so a lot more directly.
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Yes, I agree, and to force a different reading on it seems a case of starting from a pre established idea and combing through the texts in an effort to find something that vaguely supports it.
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But if I were to re-translate it, I would prefer “when I have become thus”, which is probably the most literal translation possible without sounding un-English.
Compare that with “When I’m practicing like this” for evaṁbhūto.
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Again, the problem is that while it may be literal it is not idiomatic, it doesn’t convey much meaning to the reader.
Maybe, ‘when I have been doing this…’.
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Stephen, do you know Pali?
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Yes, and I am a native English language speaker.
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Good. So what’s evaṁ and what is it being translated into in ‘when I have been doing this’ or "“when I’m practicing like this”?
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I’m afraid that you are not grasping my point.
Translation is not just a literal rendering of each word in the source language. It is creating a reading that conveys the sense of the original in an idiomatic way for the reader.
What you seem to be disagreeing with is the meaning of the text, not the translation.
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Bhante, I see where you’re coming from.
But I don’t think that translation works well in AN4.11, showing that literalism isn’t always the answer.
I would probably translate it, following Monier-Williams’ dictionary, “when I am of such nature (that I easily attain the jhanas, or that I attained the jhana earlier)”, or following the commentaries as “having been”. My point is, we both translate it in a biased way, in light of how we understand the jhānas, but Bhante Sujato’s translations seems possible to me to be read both ways, and therefore is not biased.
Either way:
- The Bodhisattva sat down under the rose-apple tree before attaining first jhana
- He sat down under the Bodhi tree before he attained jhanas at his awakening
- Ānāpānassati, which includes jhanas, is always said to be done sitting down
- In the fourth jhāna simile one “sits down”
- The hindrances are abandoned and jhānas attained after sitting down in MN51
- In Thag9.1 the jhānas are attained when sitting down
- The Buddha says he feels exclusively pleasure (of 1st-3rd jhānas, it is implied) for seven days without moving in MN14
- (A bit ambigious, perhaps, but the jhānas are said to be how the Budda “lies down” in AN4.246)
- In DN16 he lays down before attaining the jhānas
- In this very sutta itself (AN3.63) the Buddha says he sits down before attaining the jhānas
From all this, and probably more, it seems to me that sitting (or lying), not moving, is a requirement for the jhānas. Opposed to all this we have a single sutta (in which the Buddha also explicitly says he sits down before attaining jhānas…) where our interpretation hinges on one ambiguous term evaṃbhūto. I don’t know, but I wouldn’t want my interpretation to depend on something like that.
(I also have lots of pragmatic issues. Why would one be able to move about, hear sounds, think, but not be able to speak, for example. But that’s another thread.)
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Here we have samādhi occurring whilst walking.
Suppose a mendicant has got rid of desire and ill will while walking, and has given up dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. Their energy is roused up and unflagging, their mindfulness is established and lucid, their body is tranquil and undisturbed, and their mind is immersed in samādhi. Such a mendicant is said to be ‘keen and prudent, always energetic and determined’ when walking.
Carato cepi, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno abhijjhābyāpādo vigato hoti, thinamiddhaṁ … uddhaccakukkuccaṁ … vicikicchā pahīnā hoti, āraddhaṁ hoti vīriyaṁ asallīnaṁ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṁ cittaṁ ekaggaṁ, carampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṁbhūto ‘ātāpī ottāpī satataṁ samitaṁ āraddhavīriyo pahitatto’ti vuccati.
AN 4.12
Here there is samādhi whilst being physically assaulted
My energy shall be roused up and unflagging, my mindfulness established and lucid, my body tranquil and undisturbed, and my mind immersed in samādhi. Gladly now, let fists, stones, sticks, and swords strike this body! For this is how the instructions of the Buddhas are followed.’
Āraddhaṃ kho pana me vīriyaṃ bhavissati asallīnaṃ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ. Kāmaṃ dāni imasmiṃ kāye pāṇisamphassāpi kamantu, leḍḍusamphassāpi kamantu, daṇḍasamphassāpi kamantu, satthasamphassāpi kamantu, karīyati hidaṃ buddhānaṃ sāsanan’ti.
MN 28
This doesn’t read like the 5 senses are cut off, and does read like someone can walk around whilst in Jhāna.
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Also here
“Mendicants, there are five benefits of walking meditation. What five? You get fit for traveling, fit for striving in meditation, and healthy. What’s eaten, drunk, chewed, and tasted is properly digested. And immersion gained while walking lasts long. These are the five benefits of walking meditation.”
AN 5.29
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Why should we prefer the non-literal translation here?
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Sure, but the term samādhi is used more widely than jhānas. Jhāna is sammā samādhi, not all samādhi is sammā samādhi. The question we’re having is not whether one can walk with some sort of samādhi, but whether one can walk in the jhānas.
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