@Dhabba, i do not see anymore what is really the point. We talked about entering an uwnholesome path of bad intentions, speech, acts. Well that is based upon avijja. That is Buddha-Dhamma. It is not based upon being an evil person or having an evil self. I do not understand what is your problem with this? Why can’t you accept this?
Suppose, robbers would really know that robbing people turns out bad for themselves, would they still do it? So, can you really claim that they know what they are doing? Isn’t it avijja which makes them do this deeds?
Ofcourse there is fear and shame too, but you can also understand that in a community in which hunting is very normal, or offering animals, or cutting of heads of people, or deceiving people to get rich, it is fearful not to do that and being banned from the community.
People are most of the time only concerned with that. If the group of friends likes to drink, vandalize, terrorise people most of the time poeple adept to the group moral. Social pressure is huge.
In some circles it very normal that if one changes in religion one is banned or now seen as renegate.
One can even be murdered!
What does fear and shame mean here? I feel nothing. It does not even relate to conscience. It only relates to social pressure issues. One must be very strong and firm in principles if one still choices not to offer animals, not to hunt, cut of heads, etc. when such things are very normal and even morally appreciated to do. Now we are beginning to talk about conscience, i feel.
But just comfirming to conventions has nothing to do with that, i feel.
Regarding dispassion. I believe if one still has to apply techniques to deal with passions, or to become disillusioned, one is a learner, and is not yet dispassionate.
I am certainly not dispassionate, but you know.
I feel it is a shame that you cannot or are not willing to consider that a wrong path is because of avijja and not because of evilness and evil persons and evil selfs. If you cannot see the wisdom of this, i regret that.
My experience is also that it is very unlikely people will change certain unwholesome patterns when they do not really feel the bad consequences yet,. Like smoking. Why stop if one still feels healthy?
I see this the same as with unwholesome thinking, speech and deeds. It is unlikely that people will abandon this when not being confronted with bad vipaka. I have seen this in my self too.
You can call this foolish, oke, but it works this way.
There’s people out there who are deliberately cruel, who knows that their deeds are evil, and who purposefully do evil acts every day over very long periods of time. Yes, they are ignorant too.
So actually becoming fully Omniscient like the Buddha means we will have to understand and help such people too. Whether they stand condemned by their own actions may be up to someone else, but we can also extend forgiveness when we can, if possible, and try to turn them to the good.
If we are in no position to help, how can we? First Enlightenment must be reached. If we can’t help ourselves, how can we help anyone else? These are some thoughts people often have.
But there are systems in place even in Buddhism, such as the Bodhisattva Path, and also Sila, which greatly relieves others from their bondage to unwholesome deeds. I think the best some of us can do is expound the Dhamma, while others can do monumental work by being involved in helping people in their community. It may be optional, but Spiritual Life is a centerpiece in evolving society and oneself towards Nibbana and ultimate Cessation from suffering. Participating in a Sangha is also a wonderful thing.
