In defence of the Brahmā gods

[Dhabba]

Hello Venerable @sujato !

I decided to create this new thread from this one:

Viññāṇa anidassana: the state of boundless consciousness

If we take the following from MN 49 into consideration where The Buddha explains that there are higher Rupa Loka realms that Baka Brahma does not know or see: But there are three other realms that you don’t know or see, but which I know and see. There is the realm named after the gods of streaming radiance, There is the realm named after the gods replete with glory … There is the realm named after the gods of abundant fruit, which you don’t know or see. We can conclude that Baka is obviously…

My somewhat lengthy reply here below on your views regarding Baka the Brahmā has nothing to do with viññāṇaṁ anidassanaṁ and I don’t want that thread to derail and go off-topic. (I’ll soon add a reply only sticking to viññāṇaṁ anidassanaṁ in that thread.)

@sujato

The last thing we should expect from Baka is integrity and accuracy. He is full of ego, trying to defeat the Buddha by any means necessary, including quoting half-remembered and little-understood verses in order to one-up the person who challenges his supremacy.

The Buddha himself has nothing bad to say about Baka except Baka’s ignorance:
‘Alas, Baka the Brahmā is lost in ignorance! Alas, Baka the Brahmā is lost in ignorance!.

We have to keep in mind that only a Buddha, out of countless billions of other beings, points out the truth about all planes of existence. No one else does it:

Because what is actually impermanent, not lasting, transient, incomplete, and perishable, he says is permanent, everlasting, eternal, complete, and imperishable.

”So I understand, O Brahma, your coming and your radiance: “Brahma Baka is truly powerful, truly mighty, truly skilled.”

That to me, and all the other praise found in MN 49 by the Buddha (there’s a lot of praise in large chunks), shows that Brahma Baka is not full of ego or that he lacks integrity.

I see in your notes in DN 11 that you write that Brahmā is being a narcissist when repeating 3 times that he is Brahmā. Please keep in mind that Sakka does the same thing, repeats who he is 3 times, when a anger-eating yakkha is sitting on Sakka’s throne.

This is probably a thing that Devas and Brahmās, who are the leaders of certain realms of existence, do in certain situations. It is not based on narcissism.

Also please keep in mind that the brahmins during The Buddha’s time (and most likely prior to The Buddha ) had little, to nothing, to do with Brahmā, or any other higher being for that matter.

• In DN 13 we are shown in great detail just how far away the brahmins were from anything they claimed they knew or strived for, like rebirth in Brahmā’s retinue:

”So long as they proceed in this way it’s impossible that they will, when the body breaks up, after death, be reborn in the company of Brahmā.”

Just like how the following:

‘We call upon Indra! We call upon Soma! We call upon Varuṇa! We call upon Īsāna! We call upon the Progenitor! We call upon Brahmā! We call upon Mahinda! We call upon Yama!’

And the brahmins other antics were all done in vain, as told in DN 13.

—

Now if Baka the Brahmā truly had no integrity as you say, then all those eloborate and strange rituals by the brahmins for Brahmā and in the name of Brahmā (and all the other deities) and the brahmins inhumane views in general would still lead the brahmins to heavenly rebirths - but we are shown over and over again in the suttas that this is not the case.

And yet it is these very womb-born brahmins who say that … brahmins are genuine children of Brahmā, born from his mouth; his offspring, his creation, and his heirs!
By this they make a travesty of the nature of Brahmā. It is false what they say, and great is the demerit that they thereby earn.

This actually shows that Baka the Brahmā has integrity to the highest degree in that this type of ”worship” which ought to ”feed the ego” of Baka the Brahmā if he lacked integrity, is 100% rejected by him.

Let us also not forget that:

There are sentient beings that are diverse in body and unified in perception, such as the gods reborn in Brahmā’s Host through the first absorption. (DN 15)

That is the reason we find such emphasis on monotheism in other religions: ”diverse in body and unified in perception.”

This really shows how accurate and insightful The Buddha was regarding all planes of existence and the nature and characteristics of each of these various planes. As in not only applying anicca, dukkha & anatta on everything but also giving perfect descriptions of how these planes of existence actually are.

And lastly:

And what is a path to company with Brahmā?

Firstly, a mendicant meditates spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.

This is a path to company with Brahmā.” - MN 97

I think you are conflating the narcissistic, inhumane and ignorant brahmins full of ego who truly lack integrity; with Baka the Brahmā and his host who:
”spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.”

The brahmins and Brahmā have, as numreous suttas reveal, very little to do with eachother.