In defence of the Brahmā gods

Discussion
21

The philosophy of the vedic ritualist tradition is called pūrva-mīmāṃsā (prior mīmāṃsā). The philosophy of the upaniṣads is called uttara-mīmāṃsā (later mīmāṃsā), also called vedānta. Both of them were very influential, the former was more influential in pre-Buddhist times. Neither of them were theist in origin.

Thus although the Devas originate in the Vedic texts and have Indo-European parallels/cognates in the other old Indo-European cultures, their physical existence or non-existence was not a core requirement of the Vedic religion. Vedic religion is orthoprax, not orthodox.

22

Forgive me, but it still does not seem like you have listed the actual evidence for your categorical statements about the beliefs and hearts of peoples who lived thousands of years ago to such an extent that you can assign majorities to the non-theistic population. Are you making an educated guess about what those earlier peoples thought based upon what you believe later people thought? :pray:

23

The most interesting thing about MN49 is that, apparently, Māro the Evil is the Brahmās superior …

And you think thus, Evil One: Those to whom the recluse Gotama teaches Dhamma, will get beyond my reach.

And here, my German translation has dominion rather than reach … even more interesting…

BTW why do some Suttas not have Bhikkhu Bodhi?

24

Not really.

Then Māra the Wicked took possession of a member of Brahmā’s retinue

25

Why would you think a devil is superior to someone who embodies Joy, Equanimity, Compassion, and Love? Mara certainly isn’t any kind of superior, even to you. Follow the Buddhadhamma.

26

Then, monks, Māra the Evil One, having entered a certain company of Brahmas, spoke thus to me: ‘Monk, monk, do not meddle with this, do not meddle with this. For, monk, this Brahmā is a Great Brahmā, Victor, Unvanquished, All-seeing, Controller, Lord, Maker, Creator, Chief, Disposer, Master, Father of all that have become and will be.

What kind of power must he have to enter numerous Brahmās? And why would he make a case for them?

27

I’m not questioning Mara’s powers, he even posseses Ananda and arahants in the suttas (or at least tries his best). But is he really superior?

Maybe when it comes to lying & manipulation.
But not when it comes to ethics/wisdom.

After all it is the personification of delusion.

As to making a case and saying:

‘Monk, monk, do not meddle with this, do not meddle with this. For, monk, this Brahmā is a Great Brahmā, Victor, Unvanquished, All-seeing, Controller, Lord, Maker, Creator, Chief, Disposer, Master, Father of all that have become and will be.

Well earlier in the sutta The Buddha mentions that Baka Brahma doesn’t know and see any of the higher rupa loka realms, this also applies to Mara.

MN 49 is taking place in the very first Rupa Loka realm, so to keep as many beings as possible stuck in everything below this realm (which happens to be Kama Loka which is Mara’s true domain) would naturally only benefit Mara.

Also never forget the following: :wink:

this unsurpassed Wheel of the Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One, which cannot be stopped by any ascetic or brahmin or deva or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world.”

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AN4.15 says something of the power of Mara.
As i see it the total of samsara is seen as Mara’s realm (SN35.136)

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29

A little too extreme if you ask me, just keep it to Kama Loka. No power in Rupa Loka or Arupa Loka.

30

Can’t you just not believe me? What is the problem?

31

I see no reason at all why I should ”just believe” in you. :wink: You are not my teacher, are you? :sweat_smile:

Here is why your view is problematic:

And where is it that Māra and his assembly can’t go? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra, put out his eyes without a trace, and gone where the Wicked One cannot see.

Furthermore, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and mind at one, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …

Furthermore, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …

Furthermore, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …

Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …

Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite consciousness. This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …

Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …

Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra …

Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. This is called a mendicant who has blinded Māra, put out his eyes without a trace, and gone where the Wicked One cannot see. And they’ve crossed over clinging to the world.” - MN 25

So just keep it to Kama Loka and it is more in line with The Buddha’s teaching. :+1:
:pray:

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32

I’m failing to see if we are discussing Mara as in death, or Devaputta Mara or having delusional views ”as if being possesed by Mara”?

If you mean that one does indeed die in Rupa Loka & Arupa Loka, yes one dies in these realms. But does evil beings have any power in these realms? Nope.

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33

Skhanda-Māra, the demon of impermanence at the top of the wheel of life. He’s running this whole show !

34

Jhana is only a temporary state. And when one is out of jhana one has not blinded Mara at all. Mara eats that person alive. Tasty. Mjammie. That person burning with greed, hatred and delusion. All beings with anusaya and still subject to rebirth are still Mara’s prays. Mjammy…tasty persons.
Mara also possessed a being in the company of Brahma. (MN49)

I have investigated all texts about Mara, You do not have to doubt that Mara in the EBT is depicted as the ruler over the stream of existences, or the stream of life, rebirth. Really only a fully undefiled mind can be said not a pray of Mara.

Mara also is known to praise the celestial realms, high rebirths.

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35

Even when this power eventually leads to ending up in hell with a fish-head? :upside_down_face:
As told in the next sutta MN 50.

Devaputta Māra only has power in Kama Loka, that is my point. :+1:

36

MN49, Bodhi. “Then Mara the Evil One took possession of a member of the Brahma’s Assembly”…

That is not in kama loka.

The commentary says here: “When Mara discovered that the Buddha had gone to the Brahma-world, he became anxious that the Brahmas might be won over to the Dhamma and escape from his control; thus he went there to discourage the Buddha from teaching the Dhamma” (MN, note 501, Bodhi)

So the commentary suggest that even Brahma’s are under the control of Mara…How can it be otherwise if MahaBrahma believes he is permanent.

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Well you are now posting something that we are already discussing in this thread as if it was some discovery we all had missed - to possess members of brahma’s retinue does not equal total domination over Samsara, right?

Did you miss that I already wrote that this took place in the lowest Rupa Loka realm? Nothing new.

38

He is the cause of Samsara. He wanted to create an eternity but in his ignorance created a bad eternity - dependent origination. He is therefore the creator of death, old age, illness. The path is to escape his realms.

Brähmā is more or less his puppet

39

Sounds like a bad dude. I wonder if he could beat Superman in a fight?! Doubt he’d beat popeye though… :joy: :pray:

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40

There once was a great doctor who made various medicines that healed many.

The doctor had a rival who also tried to sell various types of medicine, but these medicines unfortunately had poison in them.

Out of the blue a supreme doctor showed up at the great doctor’s medicine lab and spoke of his special medicine with incredible ingredients and amazing healing properties unheard of before.

The rival panicked and dressed up as a lab employee at the great doctor’s lab and pleaded to the supreme doctor: Please don’t release your medicine to the public, the great doctor is the greatest doctor of all great doctors there ever was and will be, the great doctor’s medicine is sufficient.

The supreme doctor saw that it was the rival posing as a lab employee…

Now to imagine that this one occurrence, or the power by the rival to still be able to pretend to be a real lab employee, has somehow lead to the great doctor telling all his employees at the lab to mix all sorts of poison into his various medicines, is really to exaggerate.

Don’t you think? :wink: