I think there is good discussion to be had on that but I think we have drifted way off the OP’s original topic. Would you care to start a new thread on that?
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Your are right charlie. I think i will search the old topics first. Thanks, wish you the best
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The prose section of the Bahiya sutta is likely just commentary (Ven. Anālayo has made a convincing argument regarding this). The original description of this practice is in SN 35.95. There what is meant is clearly sense restraint. In the seen, just the seen instead of following the pleasing or displeasing. Maintaining sense restraint is then a condition for Jhāna, which is in a sense a more developed form of it. The result then (Arahantship) is perfected sense restraint, since there is no craving and so no identity in relation to the seen etc. IMO people read far too much into those particular words, such as Ven. Ñāṇananda and others.
‘When you see a sight, mindfulness is lost
as attention latches on a pleasant feature.
Experiencing it with a mind full of desire,
you keep clinging to it.Many feelings grow
arising from sights.
The mind is damaged
by covetousness and cruelty.
Heaping up suffering like this,
you’re said to be far from extinguishment.When you see a sight with mindfulness,
there’s no desire for sights.
Experiencing it with a mind free of desire,
you don’t keep clinging to it.Even as you see a sight
and get familiar with how it feels,
you wear away, you don’t heap up:
that’s how to live mindfully.
Eroding suffering like this,
you’re said to be in the presence of extinguishment.
SN 35.95
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I’d like to read this argument, can you share which Ven Anālayo work it’s found in?
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It will take some digging to remember where I read it. I’ll get back to you shortly. To summarise though, the argument is that the verse sections are found in the northern parallels but the prose sections are only ever found in the Theravādin collection. He also gives good arguments regarding commentary being actually imbedded in suttas and their parallels. That too I will post more on.
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Wow… Very good analysis. Good improvement indeed @Ceisiwr.
Try to change it to:
When you see a sight with remembering to bring your attention to 4 subjective objects (sati - thoughts (dhamma), mood (citta), feeling, and body), there’s no desire for sights.
Note: make sure there is no stress on these 4 internal/subjective objects.
When the thoughts arise on the sight, switch the thoughts to 3 skillful thoughts (renounciatiin, non harming and no ill will). If one is able to do this, one can be in 1st jhana all the time (of course with other jhana factors and removal of hindrances from good morality).
If one can remove the thoughts (no vittaka-vicara), one can maintain 2nd jhana or above, etc.
Then one can have these super normal power (an 5.144 or sn 52.1):
If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein.
If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein.
If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein.
If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein.
If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending.
But the prerequisites/foundations are good morality and right view.
Maybe this meditation instruction from Late Bhante Punnaji will help.
Good luck.
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I’m not changing the Pali 
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Theories abound! If you prefer SN 35.95, that’s fine. I agree that in that sutta the Buddha is giving this as a training – for the convenience of the reader, here is what is being referred to (my emphasis):
Then, Māluṅkyaputta, with regard to phenomena to be seen, heard, sensed, or cognized: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself.
But the Buddha continues (my emphasis):
When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized…. This, just this, is the end of stress.
So yes, the Buddha is telling him to do this as a practice. But he is also stating that this is the experience of an Arahant.
There is that view, no doubt. If that interpretation works for you then that’s great.
I look at it not so much from the push side but rather from the pull side. There are many examples of this to be found (AN 11.2, SN 55.40, MN 7, etc) and you are no doubt quite familiar with them so maybe you interpret them differently than I. Summarizing AN 11.2:
“For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May freedom from remorse arise in me.’ It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.
“For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May joy arise in me.’ It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.
“For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May rapture arise in me.’ It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person.
And it continues with calm > pleasure > concentrated > know and see things as they have come to be > feel disenchantment > dispassionate > knowledge and vision of release.
Sometimes pushes are needed, like blowing on a fire to get it started so I am not suggesting there is no role for that. Maybe Buddha presented his teachings in different ways because we are not all the same.
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I’m not asking you to change the pali. But look at the pali translation, because the english translation doesn’t do the justice of conveying the true message.
On SN 35.95, you will see Pali word of Sati.
When you see a sight, mindfulness is lost
‘Rūpaṁ disvā sati muṭṭhā,
This Sati is referring to satipatthana. For an Arahant, they have fully developed their satipatthana in their daily life (24hours implementation). Same thing as jhana is fully developed in their daily life (24 hours). No sati without jhana and vice versa.
Of course unless you have developed it, then you wouldn’t know. Otherwise your knowledge is just incomplete.
Samma vayama, sati and samadhi always go hand in hand. Can’t be separated.
When one doesn’t put their attention to their senses (senses restraint), one needs to put their attention to these 4 internal objects (4 satipatthana). Otherwise it is just impossible. This is what is called as yoniso manasikara.
Most human put their mind attention into 5 senses (eyes, ears, tongue, nose, and body touches) or ayoniso manasikara (wrong attention).
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In MN 15, the Buddha clearly indicates how we must understand the third chane of the paticca-samuppada. This is the first moment of consciousness in a new birth, when consciousness descended into the mother’s womb and organized the mind and body for himself. Therefore, the cessation of ignorance and volitional formations does not make Arahant blind, deaf and so on, since the volitional formations of the present life form not vision, hearing, scent, touch, taste and imagination, but the consciousness of the future birth. According to this, the arahant lives until the death, in his body there are consciousness of six sence base, and during the collapse of the body, these consciousnesses fade along with six sence base, and the consciousness of the new birth in the womb does not occur. This means the end of Sansara. In addition to the six senses, six consciousness and six objects there is nothing. There is no soul or consciousness, which would be reborn, was escaped etc. There is no 6th, 7th, 8th consciousness.
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Hi @Nikolas
Yes, i agree. This is explained in Abdhidhamma, i have learned. I hope you have some time and patience to read this large reply. Sometimes i get still too excited about all this. I am sorry. I really try to describe things at my best. Here i go:
There are more then one Paticca Samuppada cycle (PS) described which make things clear, at least for me:
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Akusala-mūla upapatti Paṭicca Samuppāda. This describes future rebirths. It refers to what you say. In this PS cycle the vinnana refers to the rebirth vinnana, the patisandhi vinnana. This is described in the sutta’s. It is like you say above.
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Then there is Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda. Here the vinnana does refer to kamma-vinnana. This PS cylce describes kamma accumulation in real-time. So, this is not about rebirth but about how the mind develops under influence of avijja and abhisankhara’s (second factor are abshisankhara’s) into a certain mental state (bhava) during a day, happening in any moment. It describes becoming in real time.
For example, if agression arises, and the mind follows it, grasps it instinctively (tanha), feeds it consciously with thoughts and images (upadana) there is becoming (bhava) and taking birth (jati) as an animal for a moment. Ones mind becomes animal like. One becomes an agressive, animal-like person at that moment. After some time this mentally disappears (there is decay, death).
So, Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda describes the proces of becoming during life and in any moment under influence of abhisankhara’s and avijja. It describes kamma-accumulation in real time.
It must be noted that also punnabhisankhara arise based on avijja. So also meritorious volitional activities arise based on avijja! That is important to see ofcourse.
“Bhikkhus, if a person immersed in ignorance generates a meritorious volitional formation, consciousness fares on to the meritorious; if he generates a demeritorious volitional formation, consciousness fares on to the demeritorious; if he generates an imperturbable volitional formation, consciousness fares on to the imperturbable" (SN12.51)
So, here you see that merit does not free oneself of suffering or samsara. What in my opinion is meant that there is still no wisdom yet behind those meritorious volitional activities. For example: one gives a monk some food, thinking…‘aha, now i will have a happy afterlife’. This kind of meritorious activity is not really connected yet with the goal of Nibbana. It has still an ego-oriented perspective on life.
In Idappaccayātā PS cycle the vinnana refers to the kamma-vinnana not to patisandhi-vinnana or rebirth consciousness. So, this decribes the kamma acumulation in real time.
This is important because between 1 and 2 there is relation, The vinnana, the patisandhi vinnana, the rebirth vinnna is shaped on the basis of the strong habitual tendencies (kamma seeds) which one feeds in this life. So, if in this life you take easily and often birth as an animal, probably at death that accumalated kamma may be so strong that it comes at the forefront and shapes as it were the rebirth-vinnana, so one is born as an animal.
So there is a correlation between what one feeds in this life, i.e. between how one takes birth during life, and after this life. This is also illustrated by the Buddha in [MN57]
So, there is also birth, existence, decay, death etc in this life. There is also becoming in this life.
And there is becoming over many lifes. And both are related. And the correlation was what the Buddha saw during awakening.
MN57 shows, if you develop all the habits, behaviour, likings, dislikings of a dog, so, if you make as a human a dog-like bhava (existence) in this live, that becomes your next bhava, next life. Only when you make it very strong. The sutta also says that one can be born in hell also when this is connected with wrong views. This i do not understand.
Next to this there is a difference in:
-akusula mula paticca samuppada cylce. This we all know and starts with avija-sankhara–suffering.
-kusala mula paticca samuppada cycle: this is the cycle which leads to the end of suffering.
In this cycle there is also alobha, adosa (merit) but now it is connected with Nibbana, with wisdom. In that case their is no kamma-accumulation in this life.
Some people translate this technical stuff as follows: one acts just spontaneous good, wise, to the point, what is needed, and not intentionally anymore.
There are many more details. But this gives a good idea i think.
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I have my doubts about the above conclusion. The entire conclusion seems based on definitions of words such as nirodhena & uparujjhatī. In other words, the conclusion seems to impute the Buddha asking two separate questions and giving two separate answers; with one answer being the luminous consciousness and the second answer being the cessation of consciousness. However, there are many suttas, the most literal being SN 22.5, where the word ‘nirodha’ (in the case of SN 22.5 ‘atthaṅgama’ is used) does not literally refer to literal “cessation” but refers to a state free from defilement. In other words, in the context of DN 11, which seems addressed to a puthujjana, the ‘luminous consciousness’ & the ‘nirodha consciousness’ may not refer to two different things.
Also, I do not agree with Warder about “uparujjhati”. I regard the prefix “upa” as distinctive and pointing to a non-permanent cessation of ‘long’, ‘short’, ‘name’, ‘form’, etc. These only cease in “association with” (“upa”) the boundless consciousness, which is why the prefix “upa” is used.
Obviously, there cannot be a permanent cessation of ‘long’, ‘short’, etc. If the cessation of ‘long’, ‘short’, etc, was enlightenment then the Buddha could not have been enlightened when experiencing long & short breathing in SN 54.11. 
DN 11 seems to be an ‘enigma’ merely due to language. For example, for me, it is unlikely nama-rupa in DN 11 refers to the immaterial aspects of an individual being, which is a Buddhist concept rather than a Brahministic concept. Given DN 11 contextually is very similar to MN 49, it seems nama-rupa here has a Brahministic meaning of ‘name-form’ rather than the Buddhist meaning of ‘feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention, earth, wind, fire, water’. In DN 11 & MN 49, the words long and short, fine and coarse, beautiful and ugly seem to merely represent the discriminatory aspects of name and form, per the Brahmanistic teachings, where the forms of experience are named with discriminations of ‘long’, ‘short’, ‘fine’, ‘course’, ‘beautiful’, ‘ugly’, etc. The teachings in DN 11 & MN 49, given to Brahmins & Brahmas, to me, are reminiscent of the luminous consciousness non-discrimination teachings given by Ajahn Sumedho. Pure modern Vedanta. 
Hey, Ven. @Sunyo 
In looking at Ven. Sujato’s notes on DN 11, I was rethinking the sutta somewhat along these lines. I noticed that you hadn’t included this reasoning in your post, but I think there are some additional contextual clues that can add to the pile of evidence pointing towards viññāṇa anidassana being a formless state.
I think that all of DN 11 is related to the practice of jhāna and the Brahmā realms being related to the attainment of jhāna. The reason why Brahmā does not know where rūpa ceases is because he is in a rūpabhava — a (luminous) form existence. The whole sutta is about a monk on a quest to find the cessation of form (rūpa). And what is the cessation, or place where form minds no footing as it is re-worded? Arūpa of course. But the Brahmā deities cannot know this, because even they do not have access to these higher states of consciousness that are formless and boundless. He ends up getting the answer to its complete cessation when the Buddha gives his second answer.
This is already quite significant in my opinion. The sutta represents an allegory showing how Brahmā does not have access to higher states of consciousness beyond form (rūpa) and that the Buddhists do. But I think there are some other clues in the sutta that point to this. The main one is the following:
[B]y the signs [nimittā] that are seen—light arising and radiance appearing—we know that Brahmā will appear. For this is the precursor for the appearance of Brahmā, namely light arising and radiance appearing.
This passage is saying that the sign/indication that Brahmā — a great deity of form (rūpa) equated to the jhānas in Early Buddhism — is going to appear is the appearance of light and radiant form. This to me is an allegory for the first jhāna: one knows that the jhāna will arise as one elevates consciousness to the state of luminous form, indicated by the light that is reflected back. I think that it is clarifying what the text is representative of, and furthering the idea that the Brahmās are only in a jhāna state below the refined states of formless perception/consciousness.
The monks journey to the Brahmā realm to find the cessation of rūpa is like one’s journey into jhānas (especially by those people who conflated jhāna with contacting God/Brahmā/Liberation, so literally a journey to Brahmā). But the end is not to be found there, it goes further, and ultimately to cessation.
The answer to the question is to be found by someone even above the rūpa realm, which is the Buddha’s expertise. But even this is not sufficient: cessation is higher than formlessness. So the Buddha tags on another part of the question/a second answer, which is about the complete cessation of nāmarūpa altogether.
Just wanted to contribute to the general understanding of this sutta and to your argument!
Mettā
Dear Bhante Sunyo,
Thank you very much for the essay. I could follow your logic and found a lot to think about. Although it is a bit surprising if Bhante Thanissaro followed the Burmese version instead of Thai, but he might have made his own choice for some reasons. Anyway I am not supposed to worry too much about nibbana at the moment because I am not even a stream-enterer, but I will definitely keep this discussion in mind.
I get so much kind and generous help from this website, so I will try to ‘pay back’ by sharing what I can whenever and wherever possible.
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Sorry for not reading the entire thread so I may repeat someone else’s idea.
What if this verse, the verse in MN49 and SN 1.27 all describe the viññana of an Arahant reaching he Awakening, probably similar or related to Ven. Sariputta’s bhavanirodho nibbanam ä?
So, basically, this viññana is literally a viññana giving no support to namarupa, basically eliminating all of namarupa as an experienced reality. Since namarupa and viññana are mutually dependent, this anidassana viññana ceases as well and there remains nothing: viññanassa nirodhena. Basically, the state of cessation of perception is achieved.
So, basically what happens in the stanzas in Kevatta Sutta is that a mendicant experiences some sort of liberating consciousness or consciousness of liberation. This consciousness does not provide any footing for the elements; in fact, it is such, that entire namarupa gets ‘eliminated without remainder’ when it springs up. Since consciousness cannot operate without namarupa, when the namarupa sheath collapses, this viññana anidassana follows this collapse as well and ceases too, thus all the five aggregates stop.
In this reading, the full stop in the Kevatta Sutta stanza should be used right before ‘Viññanassa nirodhena’. Viññana anidassa is then basically an epiphenomenon of liberation and/or entering the cessation of perception. It is a kind of inertia consciouness experienced before the entire mass of the five aggregates stop (whether in experience only or forever - I don’t know).
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Do you believe that Snp 4.11 is referring to this state where “earth, water,
fire, and air find no footing” in the bolded passage below?
If so, that would indicate that this bolded passage is an alternative wording for the bolded passage below from Ud 1.10.
I say this because Ud 1.10 refers to the state where “earth, water,
fire, and air find no footing”
Nevermine, I looked up the Dirgha Agama version of the Kevaddha Sutta and here is what it has to say:
So, as far as I understand, it may be talking about consciouness in general or you are right and it talks about the realm of the Infinite Consciousness: it just doesn’t matter.
Snp 4.11 does not appear to be describing infinite consciousness, but rather neither perception nor non perception.
If we take the following from MN 49 into consideration where The Buddha explains that there are higher Rupa Loka realms that Baka Brahma does not know or see:
But there are three other realms that you don’t know or see, but which I know and see. There is the realm named after the gods of streaming radiance, There is the realm named after the gods replete with glory … There is the realm named after the gods of abundant fruit, which you don’t know or see.
We can conclude that Baka is obviously not saying anything at all about the formless realms later on, because he doesn’t even know and see the higher Rupa Loka realms to begin with(!)
So it is obviously the Buddha who is saying:
”Consciousness where nothing appears, infinite, luminous all-round”.
But is the Buddha really talking about the second formless realm of boundless conscioussness?
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For the Buddha to disappear from Baka but still having his voice heard, The Buddha didn’t have to enter a distinctly different world of existence like arupa loka, a higher rupa loka plane is sufficient for the task.
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Also let us not forget the fact that one can’t teach dhamma to any of the beings in arupa loka:
Furthermore, a Realized One has arisen in the world.
But person has been reborn in one of the long-lived orders of gods.
This is the fourth lost opportunity for spiritual practice.
- Which means that if one can’t teach dhamma while in the formless, how could the Buddha ”teach Baka a lesson” FROM the second formless realm?
Then I used my psychic power to will that my voice would extend so that Brahmā, his assembly, and his retinue would hear me, but they would not see me. And while vanished I recited this verse:
‘Seeing the danger in continued existence—
that life in any existence will cease to be—
I didn’t affirm any kind of existence,
and didn’t grasp at relishing.’
- Anidassanaṁ is a synonym for Nibbāna and the entire path, not a description of boundless conscioussness (the second formless realm).
If we take The invisible (Anidassanañca) …,
that in which nothing appears …
Anidassanañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anidassanagāmiñca maggaṁ.
Taṁ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, anidassanaṁ …pe….
and put it in its proper full context
-
- We get the following:
“Mendicants, I will teach you the invisible and the path that leads to the invisible. Listen …
And what is the invisible?
The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.
This is called the invisible.
And what is the path that leads to the invisible?
Serenity.
This is called the path that leads to the invisible.
And what is the path that leads to the invisible?
Immersion with placing the mind and keeping it connected. … Immersion without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected. … Immersion without placing the mind or keeping it connected. … Emptiness immersion. … Signless immersion. … Undirected immersion. … A mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of covetousness and displeasure for the world. … A mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of feelings … A mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the mind … A mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of principles … A mendicant generates enthusiasm, tries, makes an effort, exerts the mind, and strives so that bad, unskillful qualities don’t arise. … A mendicant generates enthusiasm, tries, makes an effort, exerts the mind, and strives so that bad, unskillful qualities are given up. … A mendicant generates enthusiasm, tries, makes an effort, exerts the mind, and strives so that skillful qualities arise. … A mendicant generates enthusiasm, tries, makes an effort, exerts the mind, and strives so that skillful qualities that have arisen remain, are not lost, but increase, mature, and are fulfilled by development. … A mendicant develops the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to enthusiasm, and active effort. … A mendicant develops the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to energy … immersion due to mental development … immersion due to inquiry, and active effort. … A mendicant develops the faculty of faith, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. … A mendicant develops the faculty of energy … mindfulness … immersion … wisdom, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. … A mendicant develops the power of faith … energy … mindfulness … immersion … wisdom, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. … A mendicant develops the awakening factor of mindfulness … investigation of principles … energy … rapture … tranquility … immersion … equanimity, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. … A mendicant develops right view … right thought … right speech … right action … right livelihood … right effort … right mindfulness … right immersion, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. This is called the path that leads to the invisible. So, mendicants, I’ve taught you the invisible and the path that leads to the invisible. Out of compassion, I’ve done what a teacher should do who wants what’s best for their disciples. Here are these roots of trees, and here are these empty huts. Practice absorption, mendicants! Don’t be negligent! Don’t regret it later! This is my instruction to you.”
That’s a reasonable point, but it relies on the assumption that Baka was talking about something that he had experience of. But the statement is a quote—a line of verse abruptly inserted in prose—and there is no reason he shouldn’t simply be repeating with strong confidence something that he has heard of but doesn’t really understand. Happens all the time.
Moreover, the central canonical example of the Brahmanical teaching on these states does exactly the same thing. Uddaka Rāmaputta propounds the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception as the goal of his teaching, but the text clearly implies that he himself had never attained that state.
Step back and look at the narrative. Baka, the stork, is being set up from the beginning—even his name—as a fall guy. From my notes:
Pali stories (Ja 38, Ja 236) tell of how the stork dozes peacefully as if meditating by the water, while in reality he is trying to fool fish into approaching so he can snatch them up. A cunning, large, white, high-flying, predatory bird who fakes meditation is a fitting image for the antagonist of this sutta.
The last thing we should expect from Baka is integrity and accuracy. He is full of ego, trying to defeat the Buddha by any means necessary, including quoting half-remembered and little-understood verses in order to one-up the person who challenges his supremacy.
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