In Vism. (Visuddhi-magga), Vitakka means "thought" as mental recitation

frankk · October 18, 2018, 4:36pm

What these passages from Vism. show, is that even in Vism., Vitakka still retains the same meaning of:
vitakka & vicara = vaci-sankhara (vocalized-speech-fabrications) from MN 44

That is, vitakka is the thought you think before you say it out loud.
vitakka is mental talk.
vitakka can be reciting a memorized sutta in the mind without vocalizing it.

B. Nanamoli translates V&V in Vism. as “applied thought” and “sustained thought”. We’ll disect vicara later to show how Vism. corrupts the meaning of vicara for jhana, but at least these passages show “Vitakka” still retains the correct EBT meaning of thoughts as mental recitation of unvocalized speech (MN 44).

Other translators have rendered Vism.'s first jhana V&V as “initial application” & “sustained application”. That is monumentally wrong, even just in the context of Vism. first and second jhana. As you can see in the passages below, Vitakka definitely needs to have “thought” to indicate mental recitation of speech.

B. Sujato, in translating Vitakka for jhana context as “placing the mind”, is also egregiously incorrect in the same way as “initial application”. Vitakka in Vism. jhana has two parts to it:

the function of placing the mind on an object
the function of “placing” doesn’t exist in a vaccuum. It refers to a “thought” (vaci-sankhara), an object with meaning.
Both function and meaning need to be present in the definition of Vitakka. B. Sujato and those who render Vitakka as “initial application” removes the meaningful content. You can not do that.

Vism. 1st jhana gloss, earth kasina

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=28489&sid=672d21a60f16704fea8a3fb575b2569a&start=60

(citations mined from Dmytro’s excellent contributions to that thread)

earth kasina explanation


Vism 1, 4. pathavī-kasiṇa-niddeso

apica vaṇṇaṃ amuñcitvā nissayasavaṇṇaṃ katvā ussadavasena paṇṇattidhamme cittaṃ paṭṭhapetvā manasi kātabbaṃ.	29. The colour should not be reviewed.
pathavī mahī, medinī, bhūmi, vasudhā, vasundharātiādīsu pathavīnāmesu yamicchati, yadassa saññānukūlaṃ hoti, taṃ vattabbaṃ.	The characteristic should not be given attention.
apica pathavīti etadeva nāmaṃ pākaṭaṃ, tasmā pākaṭavaseneva pathavī pathavīti bhāvetabbaṃ.	[8] But rather, while not ignoring the colour, attention should be given by setting the mind on the [name] concept as the most outstanding mental datum, relegating the colour to the position of a property of its physical support.
kālena ummīletvā kālena nimīletvā āvajjitabbaṃ.	That [conceptual state] can be called by anyone he likes among the names for earth (pathavī) such as “earth” (pathavī), “the Great One” (mahī), “the Friendly One” (medinī), “ground” (bhūmi), “the Provider of Wealth” (vasudhā), “the Bearer of Wealth”(vasudharā), etc., whichever suits his manner of perception.
yāva uggahanimittaṃ nuppajjati, tāva kālasatampi kālasahassampi tato bhiyyopi eteneva nayena bhāvetabbaṃ.	Still “earth” is also a name that is obvious, so it can be developed with the obvious one by saying “earth, earth.”
	It should be adverted to now with eyes open, now with eyes shut.
	And he should go on developing it in this way a hundred times, a thousand times, and even more than that, until the learning sign arises.

earth kasina T&V: takka & vitakka, thinking & applied-thinking


57. tassevaṃ bhāvayato yadā nimīletvā āvajjantassa ummīlitakāle viya āpāthamāgacchati, tadā uggahanimittaṃ jātaṃ nāma hoti.	When, while he is developing it in this way, it comes into focus as he adverts with his eyes shut exactly as it does with his eyes open, then the learning sign is said to have been produced.
tassa jātakālato paṭṭhāya na tasmiṃ ṭhāne nisīditabbaṃ.	After its production he should no longer sit in that place;
attano vasanaṭṭhānaṃ pavisitvā tattha nisinnena bhāvetabbaṃ.	he should return to his own quarters and go on developing it sitting there.
pādadhovanapapañcaparihāratthaṃ panassa ekapaṭalikupāhanā ca kattaradaṇḍo ca icchitabbo.	But in order to avoid the delay of foot washing, a pair of single-soled sandals and a walking stick are desirable.
athānena sace taruṇo samādhi kenacideva asappāyakāraṇena nassati, upāhanā āruyha kattaradaṇḍaṃ gahetvā taṃ ṭhānaṃ gantvā nimittaṃ ādāya	Then if the new concentration vanishes through some unsuitable encounter, he can put his sandals on, take his walking stick, and go back to the place to re-apprehend the sign there.
āgantvā sukhanisinnena bhāvetabbaṃ,	When he returns he should seat himself comfortably
punappunaṃ samannāharitabbaṃ, takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ kātabbaṃ.	and develop it by reiterated reaction to it and by striking at it with thought and applied thought.

[The Counterpart Sign]


tassevaṃ karontassa anukkamena nīvaraṇāni vikkhambhanti,	31. As he does so, the hindrances eventually become suppressed,
kilesā sannisīdanti,	the defilements subside,
upacārasamādhinā cittaṃ samādhiyati,	the mind becomes concentrated with access concentration,
paṭibhāganimittaṃ uppajjati.	and the counterpart sign arises.

asubha T&V as mental recitation


Vism 1, 6. asubhakammaṭṭhānaniddeso, uddhumātakakammaṭṭhānaṃ

rattiṭṭhāne ca divāṭhāne ca	In his night quarters and in his day quarters
“uddhumātakapaṭikkūlaṃ uddhumātakapaṭikkūlan”ti	he should keep his mind anchored there thus,
tattha punappunaṃ cittaṃ upanibandhitabbaṃ.	“Repulsiveness of the bloated, repulsiveness of the bloated.”
punappunaṃ taṃ nimittaṃ āvajjitabbaṃ, manasikātabbaṃ.	And he should advert to the sign, bring it to mind and
takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ kātabbaṃ.	strike at it with thought and applied thought over and over again.

arupa infinite space T&V as mental recitation


Vism 1, 10. āruppaniddeso, paṭhamāruppavaṇṇanā

so taṃ kasiṇugghāṭimākāsanimittaṃ	9. He adverts again and again to the sign of the space left by the removal of
“ākāso ākāso”ti punappunaṃ āvajjeti,	the kasiṇa as “space, space,”
takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ karoti.	and strikes at it with thought and applied thought.
tassevaṃ punappunaṃ āvajjayato takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ karoto	As he adverts to it again and again and strikes at it with thought and applied thought,
nīvaraṇāni vikkhambhanti,	the hindrances are suppressed,
sati santiṭṭhati,	mindfulness is established
upacārena cittaṃ samādhiyati.	and his mind becomes concentrated in access.
so taṃ nimittaṃ punappunaṃ āsevati, bhāveti, bahulīkaroti.	He cultivates that sign again and again, develops and repeatedly practices it.

arupa infinite consciousness T&V as mental recitation


Vism 1, 10. āruppaniddeso, viññāṇañcāyatanakathā
viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ santato manasikaritvā taṃ ākāsaṃ pharitvā pavattaviññāṇaṃ “viññāṇaṃ viññāṇan”ti punappunaṃ āvajjitabbaṃ, manasikātabbaṃ, paccavekkhitabbaṃ, takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ kātabbaṃ.	he should give his attention to the base consisting of boundless consciousness as peaceful, adverting again and again as “consciousness, consciousness” to the consciousness that occurred pervading that space [as its object]. He should give it attention, review it, and strike at it with applied and sustained thought ...

arupa nothingness T&V as mental recitation


Vism 1, 10. āruppaniddeso, ākiñcaññāyatanakathā
taṃ viññāṇaṃ amanasikaritvā “natthi natthī”ti vā, “suññaṃ suññan”ti vā, “vivittaṃ vivittan”ti vā punappunaṃ āvajjitabbaṃ, manasikātabbaṃ, paccavekkhitabbaṃ, takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ kātabbaṃ.	33. Without giving [further] attention to that consciousness, he should [now] advert again and again in this way, “there is not, there is not,” or “void, void,” or “secluded, secluded,” and give his attention to it, review it, and strike at it with thought and applied thought.

arupa #8 T&V as mental recitation


Vism 1, 10. āruppaniddeso, nevasaññānāsaññāyatanakathā
nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ santato manasikaritvā “sāva abhāvaṃ ārammaṇaṃ katvā pavattitā ākiñcaññāyatanasamāpatti santā santā”ti punappunaṃ āvajjitabbā, manasikātabbā, paccavekkhitabbā, takkāhatā vitakkāhatā kātabbā.	He should advert again and again to that attainment of the base consisting of nothingness that has occurred making non-existence its object, adverting to it as “peaceful, peaceful,” and he should give his attention to it, review it and strike at it with thought and applied thought.

Vibhanga Atthakatha

Some more details are given in Vibhanga Atthakatha:


Abhidhamma Piṭaka, vibhaṅgapāḷi, 7. satipaṭṭhānavibhaṅgo, 1. suttantabhājanīyaṃ, 1. kāyānupassanāniddeso
Tattha kesādīnaṃ vaṇṇasaṇṭhānadisokāsaparicchedavasena upaṭṭhānaṃ uggahanimittaṃ, sabbākārato paṭikūlavasena upaṭṭhānaṃ paṭibhāganimittaṃ. Taṃ punappunaṃ āvajjentassa manasikarontassa takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ karontassa cattāro khandhā paṭikūlārammaṇā honti, paṭhamajjhānavasena appanā pavattati. Pubbabhāge parikammaupacāracittāni savitakkasavicārāni sappītikāni somanassasahagatāni paṭikūlanimittārammaṇāni; appanāpi savitakkasavicārā sappītikā somanassasahagatāva. Bhūmantarena pana mahaggatā rūpāvacarā honti. Paṭikkūlepi ca etasmiṃ ārammaṇe ānisaṃsadassāvitāya somanassaṃ uppajjati, ekattārammaṇabaleneva vā taṃ uppajjati. Dutiyajjhānādīni panettha na nibbattanti. Kasmā? Oḷārikattā. Idañhi ārammaṇaṃ oḷārikaṃ. Vitakkabalenevettha cittekaggatā jāyati, na vitakkasamatikkamenāti. Ayaṃ tāva samathavasena kammaṭṭhānakathā.	It is said that through repeated advertence, and "stiking by vitakka", at either the 32 parts of the body (kesādīnaṃ), or repulsiveness (paṭikūla), first jhana is attained. However, such approach does not lead to second and further jhanas (Dutiyajjhānādīni panettha na nibbattanti) due to the coarseness of object-support (ārammaṇaṃ oḷārikaṃ).

Tattha appanāya pāpitakālato paṭṭhāya sesakoṭṭhāsesu akilamantova appanaṃ pāpessati. Tasmā ‘paṭikūlaṃ paṭikūlan’ti punappunaṃ āvajjitabbaṃ samannāharitabbaṃ, takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ kātabbaṃ. Evaṃ karontassa cattāro khandhā paṭikūlārammaṇā honti, appanaṃ pāpuṇāti. Pubbabhāgacittāni parikammaupacārasaṅkhātāni savitakkasavicārānīti sabbaṃ heṭṭhā vuttasadisameva. Ekaṃ pana koṭṭhāsaṃ manasikarontassa ekameva paṭhamajjhānaṃ nibbattati. Pāṭiyekkaṃ manasikarontassa dvattiṃsa paṭhamajjhānāni nibbattanti. Hatthe gahitapañhāvatthu pākatikameva.	This passage and the Visuddhimagga description tell that essentially vitakka starts as verbal repetition of the name(s) of object-support, i.e. "earth, earth", "air, air". And these passages explain why such approach does not lead to second jhana and further.

Even 3rd jhana can be triggered with vitakka as mental recitation

152. When he has emerged from the second jhāna happiness appears gross to him as he reviews the jhāna factors with mindfulness and full awareness, while bliss and unification appear peaceful.

Then as he brings that same sign to mind as

“earth, earth”

again and again with the purpose of abandoning the gross factor and obtaining the peaceful factors, [knowing] “now the third jhāna will arise,” there arises in him mind-door adverting with that same earth kasiṇa as its object, interrupting the life-continuum. After that, either four or five impulsions impel on that same object, the last one of which is an impulsion of the fine-material sphere belonging to the third jhāna.

Charlie · October 20, 2018, 6:22am

I have been wanting to offer some thoughts on this topic of ‘picking and placing’ in one of your posts for a while so though not exactly on topic ‘there is no place like here’…

First, I greatly appreciate the work you have done on this issue. You convinced me a long time ago. I hope you keep at it. I have some thoughts on the nature of this problem of directed thought and evaluation vs picking and placing. As an analogy: if a person is learning carpentry – some will say that they are doing carpentry even as an apprentice as long as they can put things together correctly while others might insist that you aren’t a real carpenter until you have reached a level of mastery. So with regard to jhana: is one doing jhana when those qualities that are said to be absent are absent and those qualities that are said to be present are present or do we define jhana in terms of depth or level of skill. IMO the suttas take the former view while Ajahns Brahm, Sujato, and others follow the latter – resulting in this need to redefine terms and the resulting incoherent statements that result from this that you have documented.

Getting back to carpentry – an apprentice carpenter, in carrying out a specific task has to keep in mind all the things they have learned – they might even talk to themselves out loud in order to stay focused on what they need to do – but they are doing carpentry never the less. A master carpenter is so skilled they only need to direct their attention on what is to be done.

So there is this fundamental disconnect between those that see jhana in terms of qualities vs those that define it in terms of depth and never the two shall meet. Those that define jhana in terms of qualities are often labeled as teaching ‘jhana lite’ by those that define it in terms of depth. It is the equivalent of saying that someone who teaches beginning carpentry is teaching carpentry lite – as if this is where the training ends when in truth this is where it begins.

I see this as constituting an underlying difference in view that is the source of this debate.

One other thought which you have probably already talked about:
If thoughts in and of themselves were an obstruction to jhana then wouldn’t it appear in the list of hindrances? Certainly after teaching for decades Buddha would have pointed this out in multiple places. Instead we have one sutta that may imply that this is so (I don’t read it that way) and a number of others that state the opposite.

frankk · October 21, 2018, 6:28pm

Hi Charlie, that’s a good analogy and you make some really good points.

But the problem is, a translator’s job is not to redefine words, especially critically important ones like vitakka & vicara. Vism. had to redefine V&V to fit with late Abhidhamma ideas of radical momentariness. Earlier in Vimt. (which followed an earlier version of Abhidhamma), they still kept the original EBT meaning of V&V intact.

IMO, there’s no problem if Ajahn Brahm and B. Sujato believes the Vism. model of (redefined jhana) using visual light nimitta with 16 APS (anapana) is a better system of gradual samadhi development than the Buddha’s EBT gradual 4 jhana training system. But it’s clear to anyone objectively reading the EBT pali texts, and their EBT parallels, that those two systems of jhana (EBT and vism.) are very different. I personally think the best gradual samadhi training system would be 90% EBT (such as Ajahn Lee, Ven. Thanissaro), with 10% qigong and yoga to augment the system. But I would never translate the EBT to reflect my own preference and biases. Just if my job was to translate the Vism., where I vehemently disagree with many important doctrinal points in there, my job as translator would be to translate what the text says, not to misrepresent what they are writing about.

B. Nanamoli’s translation of V&V of Vism. is very accurate. I would translate V&V in Vism. in the jhana context exactly the same way as he did. I wouldn’t try to put the EBT meaning of V&V (thinking & evaluation) in Vism., otherwise the Abhdhamma part would be incoherent. It’s hard to blame B. Nanamoli for translating MN’s V&V usage as he did in Vism. He was working under the assumption that the late Abhidhamma and Vism. were authoritative and correct. He was betrayed by Theravada orthodoxy, so he was translating MN in good faith IMO and incurs no unwholesome kamma.

B. Bodhi followed B. Nanamoli in translating V&V in MN using Vism. usage of “applied thought & sustained thought”, but later realized his error and corrected it to “thinking and pondering” for SN, AN, KN.

So it’s highly disturbing that B. Sujato is undoing the huge mistake corrected by B. Bodhi. An analogy: It’s like if women had been held down by Vism. with no right to vote, and B. Bodhi liberated them by restoring that right, then B. Sujato comes along and repeals women’s right to vote once more. Similarly, in EBT, V&V has the right to “think & ponder” in first jhana, but B. Sujato is bringing back the oppressive days of Vism. and only allow V&V to “place the mind” and “keep it connected.”

B. Sujato often talks about translating with these two guiding principles:

principle of least meaning
ockhams razor is usually correct

What I’ve done with assembling a thorough pali+english passage audits over the years, shows clearly how B. Sujato’s translation of V&V does not follow his two guiding principles. At some point, I believe he has to do one of the following things:

revise his translation of V&V for jhana
give a credible justification, explain to the world why he needs to violate the two guiding principles when a straightforward reading of EBT, it’s parallels in Sarvastivada, early abhidhamma, support a straightforward understanding of V&V in first jhana.

It’s ok to disagree, but at least you have to present a credible justification.

Nimal · October 21, 2018, 7:16pm

I know this request is unrelated to your topic but I would be really grateful if you would clarify you claim that momentariness is purely an Abhidhamma idea. I am not a fan of Abhidhamma but when the Buddha said “arising and ceasing” in various discourses, did he not mean momentariness?.
With Metta

anon85245511 · October 21, 2018, 11:16pm

Frankk ,
FYI ,
Yoga Sutra 1.42: “Deliberative (savitarka) samapatti is that samadhi in which words, objects, and knowledge are commingled through conceptualization.”
The citta is concentrated upon a gross object of meditation.

Charlie · October 22, 2018, 3:18am

I almost completely agree with everything you are saying (though I would increase the amount of Chi Gong and make it a mix of active and passive forms - the active forms replacing the yoga).

Yes, I agree. I think what is happening here is a sense of authenticity based on personal practice - this is my experience, this is jhana as described in the texts, therefore v&v must mean what I am experiencing.

The incoherent phrases that arise should be a red flag and I do hope that Bhante Sujato can at some point address these issues. I can relate to his usage of picking and placing at the subtle end of v&v but when we say that within jhana it exclusively means this - it just doesn’t fit. And this is not a case of my practice vs his - it is just the way the texts are written.

Charlie · October 22, 2018, 3:33am

Are you talking about those elusive mind moments? I think it is a great topic. Doing a brief search just now it is mentioned in various places but I found no thread specifically on this - though my search skills are admittedly not that great.

Nimal · October 22, 2018, 3:55am

Take for example AN 3.47 where the characteristics of conditioned phenomena are talked about. I understand it to be the momentariness associated with all that is conditioned. Therefore, I do not understand what they mean when they say momentariness is pure Abhidhamma unless they mean that every Sutta wherein such momentariness is mentioned is not EBT but later developments based on Abhidhamma.
With Metta

Charlie · October 22, 2018, 5:16am

I believe this is a reference to ‘mind moments’ - this is the idea that mind is composed of bazzillions of tiny mind moments every second - that is found in later commentary. Someone else more knowledgeable about this could do the term much better justice than I. My take on AN 3.47 is that it is describing the rapidity with which consciousness can jump from one object to another. We have in english the term ‘it grabbed my attention’ - this happens very fast and outside our control. I cannot see why Buddha would be referring to mind-moments when so few if anyone has ever experienced them - it wouldn’t make any sense from a teaching perspective.

frankk · October 22, 2018, 9:47am

I’m no Abhidhamma expert, I only learned enough about it to know it’s not for me, and only the part in Jhana did I study more closely.

But in relation to jhana, in one unit of “momentariness”, for Vism. late Abhidhamma in that one moment of appana samadhi one can not think, can not even discern (pajānāti) whether one is in first jhāna samādhi. One has to first emerge from from VRJ (vism. redefintion of jhana), before one can do any of that.

In earlier Abhdhamma, such as Vimt., and even canonical Te Ab vibhanga definition of first jhana vitakka & vicara gloss, V&V is the same as in the EBT.

In Vimt., it’s very interesting to compare with Vism., because both are based on Abhidhamma. But in Vimt., appana samadhi means the 5 hindrances are “destroyed”. In Access concentration, 5niv are not “destroyed”. While “destroyed” is vague, it seems to be consistent with what the EBT says, whereas the late Abhidhamma version of appana samadhi contradicts with EBT first jhana can do (while in “appana” samadhi).

Further, in Vimt., it describes first jhana as having 3 quality levels.

lowest quality: first jhana is “impure”, can be interrupted sometimes by 5 niv (hindrances).
middle quality: first jhana is “pure”, uninterrrupted by 5niv
highest quality: one is an arahant or ariya that can directly experience Nibbana from that first jhana

That matches nicely with some of the EBT passages such SN 40 suttas 1-9, where Moggallana describes those low quality version of samadhi attainments as he’s learning them.

karl_lew · October 22, 2018, 3:19pm

@frankk, I’ve been following this post avidly, scratching my head as someone sensing a critically important point that’s being missed. There are many complexities here beyond me and I can only hold on to just a little. I am interested in a timeless understanding of the EBT definition of vitakka and vicara, since that is what I am studying. I am less interested in a contemporary definition since my life already spans many such contemporary periods of mutable terminology. Briefly, may I paraphrase your understanding as follows in the context of studying the EBTs:

vitakka: the unspoken recitation of a sutta segment (I can’t think a whole sutta)
vicara: the contemplation of that unspoken recitation and its integration into personal outlook and conduct

Furthermore, I would only apply vitakkavicara to thoughts on truth. Any other use would be a misapplication.

frankk · October 22, 2018, 5:14pm

Hi @karl_lew ,
V&V is general purpose, not restricted to Dhamma or truth. See MN 20 for example of the 5 ways to stop unskillful types of vitakka. Just as in english., “thinking” is not restricted to skillful. It can be good thinking, evil thinking, useless thinking, etc.

V&V is directed-thought & evaluation in first jhana. Outside of the jhanas, it means pretty much the same thing. The difference in first jhana is V&V is restricted to kusala/skillful/wholesome thoughts, usually connected with the Dhamma. And the V&V in jhana is generally going to be much lower frequency and in intensity. As MN 19 shows, the opposite of that, higher frequency and higher intensity in skillful thinking prevents passadhi-bojjhanga (pacification/relaxation) of doing it’s job pacifying the body and mind to unlock piti & sukha.

Just like it can be hard to understand a complicated math formula without running a few real world examples through it, V&V becomes more clear in the same way, when you can see it working on real examples.

AN 6.10 is a very good one, it shows how recollection of buddha, dhamma, sangha "itipiso bhagava araham sambuddho… " is the V&V that leads into into the 7sb (awakening factor sequence) which intersects with first jhana in samadhi-sambojjhanga.

AN 8.30 Anurudhas 8 great thoughts (vitakka) explicitly lead to the 4 jhanas

Those are concrete examples of V&V as vaci-sankhara (vocalized-speech-fabrications, sutta passages mentally recited).

a simile:
V&V is the kindling for the fire of jhana (via 7sb).

karl_lew · October 22, 2018, 5:21pm

Ahhhhh. Thanks for answering the unspoken question. I was also wondering about this but neglected to ask. Listening to and reciting suttas during walking meditations is actually quite difficult (like walking upstream), but I do have faith that continuing thus will settle into a deeper and robust understanding that will be available regardless of circumstance.