Is sammā-samādhi solely jhāna, and is jhāna required for the attainment of Nibbāna?

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Our arguments depend on premises. My premise is that the suttas are not the Buddha’s words but the result of a transmission over 400 years that was more or less faithfully captured by the editors. In the process of transmission and editing some inaccuracies are bound to happen, and then (to me at least) repetitions matter. If for example we have concepts repeated throughout the four nikayas and at different places within those nikayas it should mean that many mouths have transmitted the same or a very similar message. A single voice is more likely (but not necessarily) to represent an abberation.

Re. the fire sutta. So the Buddha gave two sermons and already had 1000 bhikkhus? That would be quite a feat. Where did those 1000 people gain the confidence in order to sacrifice their entire life to go forth into the Buddha-Sangha? What I’m saying is, these kinds of narratives and numbers are not reliable (which much scholarly work has pointed out).

So if this was not the third sermon and there were not 1000 people around who can tell who the audience was, how much they have practiced, and when exactly they attained liberation (if it was while listening, or afterwards while meditating, and hence jhana-ing)? The sutta doesn’t focus on the narrative, it focuses on a specific Dhamma.

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The numbers and the story itself seemed a bit fantastical to me, but I found a small article by Bhikku Pesala here:

http://www.aimwell.org/expositionoftheadittapariyayasutta.html

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Ah okay, understood.

But if not even to trust that there were in fact 1000 bhikkhus present, how is it possible to go through even 1/4 of the Sutta Piṭaka and not be filled with doubt? There are things one hundred times more improbable than this, no? And while oral transmission sounds obscure to us to such extents, there are bhikkhus even today who have memorized the whole of the Tipiṭaka.

Well, there are surely other examples. It’s just that for every single newly ordained bhikkhu out of the 1000 to have reached jhāna, in such small amount of time after having been ordained, even without having heard the Buddha teach much about jhāna, it is quite a feat. Maybe 200, 400, but all 1000?

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I admit I was thinking of a sotapanna, but I see it could be applied to an arahanth listening to a Buddha. An arahanth would definitely have rupa jhana properly attained- even an non-returner would as they have completed the training in samadhi (adhicitta sikkha). However their final moment of attainment (‘long slope with sudden deepening’) could be had by listening to the dhamma by the Buddha. Thoughts about what they attained to arise soon after the attainment (paccavekkhana nana).

with metta

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This is incorrect; this ‘bare insight’ stuff isn’t found in the EBTs. Sujato writes:

Modern teachings on mindfulness are almost exclusively derived from a peculiar 20th century interpretation of one text, the Pali Satipatthana Sutta. This doctrine, the vipassanavada, says that satipatthana is a practice of ‘dry insight’, where the meditator, without previous practice of tranquility meditation, is ‘mindful’ of the changing phenomena of experience. This alone is sufficient to realize enlightenment.

When we carefully consider the range of teachings found in early Buddhist texts on mindfulness, it becomes clear that this doctrine does not hold up.

…artistic & contorted Bare Insight Apology notwithstanding.

Yes it is.

While the term ‘samadhi’ has a lot of meanings, it’s this samma- part that’s reigning in that connotative realm and confining it to Buddhist jhana.

(Why do people want vipassanavada so badly?)

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You are only stating that bare insight isn’t canonical (I agree) and replying “yes is is” to my second quoted statement, without providing any information at all.

Yes, but does that mean the sammā-samādhi is only jhāna and nothing else?

Like I previously wrote:

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Let us find this Sutta, then! :slight_smile:

That would be great. :slight_smile:

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This is the initial post outlining the discussion (which has just been added, now that it is its own thread).

Please make sure to read it, as well as the ‘Note’ described.

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’I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.’ Thus it has been said. AN9.36
:anjal:

with metta

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MN 64 might fit these criteria, here’s an excerpt:

“There is a path, Ānanda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without relying on that path, on that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters—this is not possible. Just as when there is a great tree standing possessed of heartwood, it is not possible that anyone shall cut out its heartwood without cutting through its bark and sapwood, so too, there is a path…this is not possible.
…
“And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from the acquisitions, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion [up to the jhana based on the base of nothingness]

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I can do no better than Analayo, who concludes:

Judging from this, the development of concentration up to the level of absorption appears to be required for the realization of non-return and thereby also of full awakening. Thus, at least from the perspective of the early discourses, it seems that the so-called “dry insight” approach, which dispenses with the formal development of mental tranquility up to the level of at least the first absorption, may not be capable of leading to full liberation, but might suffice only for stream-entry and once-return.

In fact, if absorption were simply irrelevant to the progress of insight up to full awakening, it would be difficult to understand why its practice and development have been given so much attention in the discourses, and why the four absorptions are included under the heading of right concentration as one of the factors of the noble eightfold path.

That whole discussion of this point is exactly what you’re asking for, and perhaps there is some wiggle room for declaring lesser attainments as possible without jhana; this wasn’t/isn’t anything problematic. Full awakening, however, does seem to require it.

:eyeglasses:

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Ah, good! However, it is not only the first jhāna. Quoting further, it is this:

I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana… the second jhana… the third… the fourth… the dimension of the infinitude of space… the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness… the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

AN 9.36, Jhāna Sutta — Mental Absorption

I would be interested in getting a better understanding of the Pāli, as surely reaching neither-perception-nor-non-perception (nevasaññā-n’asanāyatana) or the other arūpa jhānas isn’t a requirement for Nibbāna.

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The general scheme for the five faculties in the Indriya Samyutta in the SN strikes me as being relevant. A ranking of the various spiritual persons from arahant all the way down to those on the path to stream entry (SN48.18) or faith-follower (SN48.15) is given in terms of their relative strengths in these faculties.

From SN48.18:

“Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of faith … the faculty of wisdom. These are the five faculties. “One who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is an arahant. If they are weaker than that, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of arahantship; if still weaker, one is a nonreturner; if still weaker, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of nonreturning; if still weaker, one is a once-returner; if still weaker, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of once-returning; if still weaker, one is a stream-enterer; if still weaker, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. “But, bhikkhus, I say that one in whom these five faculties are completely and totally absent is ‘an outsider, one who stands in the faction of worldlings.’”

And it says that an arahant is “one who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties.”

Earlier in SN45.10 it talks about the faculty of concentration in terms of the four jhanas as follows:

“And what, bhikkhus, is the faculty of concentration? Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. Secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. With the fading away as well of rapture, he dwells equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences happiness with the body; he enters and dwells in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and displeasure, he enters and dwells in the fourth jhāna, which is neither painful nor pleasant and includes the purification of mindfulness by equanimity. This is called the faculty of concentration.

This scheme does leave wriggle room for lower stages of enlightenment (levels of these faculties can be much weaker). May explain the examples where non-recluses, presumably without prior jhana experience, listening to a dhamma talk gain stream-entry, e.g. Suppabuddha the leper in Ud 5.3 (talked through the gradual training and when his mind is malleable and receptive is taught the four noble truths and breaks through to stream-entry).

Anyway, I know the canon isn’t always consistent. However, the particular SN five faculty scheme, at least, does seem most consistent with an arahant having mastered the four jhanas.

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This is similar to AN 9.36, however it goes further to state that the path of becoming a Non-Returner (anāgāmi-magga) passes by jhāna and even to the 7th jhāna.

Most importantly, at the end of the Sutta, Ānanda asks:

Venerable sir, if this is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters, then how is it that some bhikkhus here are said to gain deliverance of mind and some are said to gain deliverance by wisdom?”

The difference here, Ānanda, is in their faculties, I say.

MN 64, Mahā­māluk­ya Sutta — The Greater Discourse to Mālunkyāputta (transl. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Which is quite revealing! :slight_smile: So this Sutta passage would indicate that deliverance of mind (Nibbāna) would be possible through emancipation by wisdom (paññāvimutti).

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Pannavimutti sutta: AN9.44 also contain jhana in its formulation.

with metta

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I am trying to read the Suttas you have quoted, but there is no English translation on SuttaCentral or Access to Insight. Would you have an available copy of the complete Suttas?

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[Udayin:] “‘Released through discernment, released through discernment,’ it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?”

[Ananda:] “There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel.

“Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana… the third jhana… the fourth jhana… the dimension of the infinitude of space… the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness… the dimension of nothingness… the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel.

Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment without a sequel.”

AN 9.44, Paññā­vimutta­ Sutta — Released Through Discernment (transl. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu)

Although it is from Ānanda and not the Buddha, and might simply be descriptive, it is a bit perplexing that, with Nibbāna, and along with the other passages, the four rūpa jhānas, the four arūpa jhānas, and possibly even cessation of perception and feeling (saññā-vedayita-nirodha) seem to be needed.

Surely not every single person to have reached Enlightenment in the Suttas had reached up to the fourth jhāna, every single one of the arūpa jhānas, and possibly cessation of perception and feeling (saññā-vedayita-nirodha)?

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Of course not.

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The problem with quoting from the SN is that Bhikkhu Bodhi’s non-free translation is really the only game in town (excepting old non-free PTS translations perhaps?). I’ve both the electronic and hard-back versions from Wisdom that I had to pay for (the feel of paper is nice but my ebook reader packed with electronic texts tends to be more practical a lot of the time than lugging around a heavy tome :slight_smile: ). Otherwise the free online coverage is very patchy (via some anthologies etc.) :frowning: Luckily, Bhante Sujato’s free Nikaya translations should remedy that in the near future!

Cutting and pasting large sections of SN48 would get this site into copyright hot water. SN48 is internally very consistent, though, in how it treats this topic. I’ll give a few extra passages.

Samma samadhi seems synonymous with the four jhanas in it. For example, SN48.8 gives a brief summary of the five faculties:

“Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of faith … the faculty of wisdom.
“And where, bhikkhus, is the faculty of faith to be seen? The faculty of faith is to be seen here in the four factors of stream-entry.
“And where, bhikkhus, is the faculty of energy to be seen? The faculty of energy is to be seen here in the four right strivings.
“And where, bhikkhus, is the faculty of mindfulness to be seen? The faculty of mindfulness is to be seen here in the four establishments of mindfulness.
“And where, bhikkhus, is the faculty of concentration to be seen? The faculty of concentration is to be seen here in the four jhanas.
“And where, bhikkhus, is the faculty of wisdom to be seen? The faculty of wisdom is to be seen here in the Four Noble Truths.
“These, bhikkhus, are the five faculties.”

And, generally, the pattern in SN48 seems to be the stronger the faculties the stronger the attainment, e.g. in SN48.14:

“Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of faith … the faculty of wisdom. These are the five faculties.
“One who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is an arahant. If they are weaker than that, one is … a faith-follower.
“Thus, bhikkhus, one who activates them fully succeeds fully; one who activates them partly succeeds partly. The five faculties, bhikkhus, are not barren, so I say.”

There are other interesting passages in there about the faculties. SN48.50 describes the sequential aspect of the faculties: how faith leads to energy, and energy to mindfulness etc. Here’s a snippet:

“It is indeed to be expected, venerable sir, that a noble disciple who has faith and whose energy is aroused will be mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and discretion, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said long ago. That mindfulness of his, venerable sir, is his faculty of mindfulness.
“It is indeed to be expected, venerable sir, that a noble disciple who has faith, whose energy is aroused, and whose mindfulness is established, will gain concentration, will gain one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. That concentration of his, venerable sir, is his faculty of concentration.

The description of concentration here is admittedly much briefer and vaguer (no direct reference to jhana). Interesting too how the memory nuances of the word “sati” are emphasized.

There are several mentions later in SN48 about wisdom being the chief among the faculties, stabilizing the other four (described as being like a “roof peak” in SN48.52):

“It is, bhikkhus, just as in a house with a peaked roof: so long as the roof peak has not been set in place, there is as yet no stability of the rafters, there is as yet no steadiness of the rafters; but when the roof peak has been set in place, then there is stability of the rafters, then there is steadiness of the rafters"

There are also some intriguing descriptions of people whose faculties fall slightly short of being full arahants, e.g. in SN48.16:

“One who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is an
arahant. If they are weaker than that, one is an attainer of Nibbana in the interval; if still weaker, an attainer of Nibbana upon landing; if still weaker, an attainer of Nibbana without exertion; if still weaker, an attainer of Nibbana with exertion"

There’s more similar material in SN48.24, but that’s probably too much cut-and-paste already, and going off on a bit of a tangent.

There’s definitely a single internally coherent picture of concentration as a faculty running through the Indriya Samyutta (but doesn’t mean it sits coherently with the rest of the canon). IMO it’s one important data point to be considered in the question posed by the OP. It’s a pity though that the SN is just so inaccessible (a situation to be remedied within a few months thankfully).

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Thank you @suaimhneas.

I didn’t know these were from Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translations by Wisdom Publications (they are very valuable tools, especially the digital versions, which be annotated!).

When posting Sutta references, if you mention that they are from digital copies of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s works (if it is the case), it will make your posts that much more convincing, being that he is a very talented scholar and translator. :slight_smile:

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