Is there a "place" in the west for a monastery that is home to Bhikkhus AND Bhikkhunis?

The Watercooler
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I am not really sure what accomplishments are being referring to, here? I am personally not aware of an abundance of women teachers that have explained or demonstrated the path to Emptiness/Nibbana.

I said correctly & truly in my post that Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī sought to be part of the Buddha’s Sangha that was created & grown by men, including at the risk of their lives in hostile places.

I said correctly & truly in my post that Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī could have started her own religious group if she had the requisite spiritual accomplishments.

I said correctly & truly in my post that the male Sangha had the compassion (karuna) & sacrifice (caga) to allow (rather than refuse) Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī & her female companions into their Sangha, which was solely based on living the non-household wandering life.

Having abandoned home,
living free from society,
the sage
in villages
creates no intimacies

The Buddha SN 22.3

I do understand Buddhism, where spiritual accomplishments are measured by the eradication of defilements, such as craving, social attachment, delusion, self & fear.

The Pali scriptures do not contain a misogynist/andocentric view of women and refusal to acknowledge women’s spiritual accomplishments since they devote an entire section (The Therigatha) to the teachings of arahant nuns & even some major suttas, such as MN 44.

MN 115 is simply a scripture than states a woman cannot be the 1st Buddha that starts the Buddhist religion in a world system. Since history shows no record or evidence of a woman starting a Buddhist religion, why would we want to dispute or argue over this probable fact in MN 115?

My sense of your viewpoint is not misogyny as the problem but the struggle to humble oneself to the difficulty of accomplishing the Buddhist path (which is not easy to accomplish for both men & women). Writing academic & hypothetical academic papers is far different from the reality of reaching Nibbana.

Kind regards :deciduous_tree:

Dhp 75. One is the quest for worldly gain and quite another is the path to Nibbana. Clearly understanding this, let not the monk [or nun], the disciple of the Buddha, be carried away by worldly acclaim, but develop detachment instead.

64

misogyny - which is the self hatred of people, mostly men, projected onto imagined others, IS the problem…

But it is part of a greater problem, which includes racism, nationalism, etc.

Look closely at your need to look down on women, and voice your view that they are inferior.

In truth, we are not separate.

That need of yours and others–to look down on and discriminate against others–reveals self-hatred.

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65

As a lay practitioner for two decades, following an initial exploration into Buddhism around 1970 that lasted only briefly, like so many other laypeople in the west I’ve given this issue much thought over the years. And I will need to give it much more thought. This complex issue has history, of course, but is also played out in myriad seemingly minor ways day by day in Buddhist communities I have been involved with to the present. I dare not assume too much generalisation but I am confident the limited opportunities for women is played out in many Buddhist complexes in Australia. I am tempted to think (as a person struggling with his own tendency towards impatience and outrage) that the issue of gender equality must be pursued at whatever cost, and yet I must counsel myself to tread carefully. Theravada is not alone in its reluctance to accord women equality but it does play the gender inquality card rather more hard than the other traditions, from what I can see. And yet I am happiest in the Theravada tradition. In the gentlest way in which it can be pursued, in whatever community we might find ourselves practising the Dhamma, and however we might value the teachings we receive from our monastics and, indeed, love our monastics, (overwhelmingly male in my experience) the issue of gender equality must be raised again and again until it is resolved. This is my intention, at least, in whatever small way I am able to undertake it. Finally, I love Bhikkhu Jayasara’s notion of the fourfold assembly. It warms my heart.

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66

As I’m sure you know this is not my notion, but the Buddha’s intention, as he said in the Mahaparinibbana sutta that he would not pass on until his monks,nuns, laymen and laywomen, are established and flourishing. That didn’t necessarily mean they all had to live together in one place, but in these modern times I don’t see why it can’t be tried more. :slight_smile:

I am actually quite proud to say that we have created a sangha that consists of the full fourfold assembly, a virtual sangha online, with not only myself and another Bhikkhu, but an Ayya from Australia and an Anagarika under her. We do sutta discussions, laity has lay person discussions etc. Fitting I suppose since I do believe that the real growth of Theravada in the west will be more in virtual space, then brick and mortar space.

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67

From my perspective the issue is not really about whether bhikkhus or bhikkhunīs should live together, but whether in general it is a good idea to mix the genders in a monastery. Attraction often takes time to develop, and the more exposure you have to someone the greater the likelihood is that you will be attracted to them. The attraction that develops over time is much more insidious and dangerous than the immediate sort of fancy, since it involves a deeper involvement with and attachment to the other person.

I recognise that people are different and that for some exposure to the opposite gender will not pose a problem. I think it is the case, however, that we are very good at underestimating our own defilements and the potential for getting sidetracked. I have no doubt this is one of the reasons the Buddha laid down fairly strict rules for how to deal with the opposite gender.

The model we follow here in Perth seems to work well. We have one monastery for bhikkus and one for bhikkhnunīs, being over one hour’s drive from each other. We usually come together once a fortnight, when the nuns come to our monastery to listen to a Dhammatalk. And sometimes a senior monk will go to the nuns’ monastery to give them a teaching. To me this seems to be a good balance. The nuns get enough support to get their community well-established, but there is little personal interaction.

I believe a fairly strict segregation of the genders is very supportive of monastic life. There are not many of us. We need to be careful to look after ourselves.

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Having spent few months at Dhammasara I agree with Ajahn @Brahmali. We seem to have hit upon the correct balance between independence and support (and very much appreciate it when said ‘senior monk’ comes to teach vinaya and answer our Pali questions!).

Noting that Dhammasara is a training monastery and I’m yet to officially start mine, I am grateful not to have the distraction of the very kind, wonderful natured, and sometimes also good looking, monks. I wouldn’t be surprised if I heard monks say something similar. In considering this issue, it isn’t about not trusting the other gender but rather recognising the danger presented by a potential romance. Of course, that danger may have evaporated for many senior monastics but I still hear that romantic relationships are the number one reason monastics disrobe.

Additionally, I have noticed how awkward it can be for female monastics trying to go about their duties without engaging too much with the very few male volunteers working at the monastery. While those volunteers are well informed about the requirement for a chaperone, and everyone endeavours to stick to it, if male presence was permanent then nuns would be forever ‘on guard’ against the perils of interaction.

I also recognise that there are monks who are still in the process of acquiring right view and might not always be as liberal minded as my favourite monks Ajahn @Brahmali or Ajahn @sujato or Ajahn Brahm. Of course, perhaps once the Bikkhuni sangha is further established this aspect might be less of a problem.

Perhaps a tour with short stays in the various monasteries may be in order?

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Following slightly on the theme of this very interesting thread, an older article from Tricycle popped up on Facebook today; an interview with UC Berkeley’s Robert Sharf. The article in part, as I read it, is supportive of the idea of the need for Sangha in the West and is appreciative of the necessary role that some ritual and direction by a community of monastics is essential. See the full article here: https://tricycle.org/magazine/losing-our-religion-2/

I think this deep suspicion of religious institutions is understandable but also misguided. The organized rule-bound and tradition-bound institution of the sangha provides a framework that, at least ideally, helps to efface egocentrism. The sangha literally embodies the Buddhist tradition; it transcends the self-concerns of any individual, especially the concerns that arise from placing our inner life at the center of the universe. So we must ask whether Buddhism, when practiced without the ties of community and tradition, instead of mitigating our tendency toward narcissism, actually feeds it.

So, I am always happy to read of, for example, Robyn’s dedication and her training path at Dhammasara, and hope that the West sees more expansion of the monastic training model in the way that Ajahn Brahm developed. I hope to see his “franchise” (his word not mine :slight_smile: ) develop one day in the US.

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