John Kelly Pali course 2023: Warder lesson 15b

Thread for discussing chapter 15 of Warder for the class on November 14th (with reading passage from chapter 14).

Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca

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So, @johnk : Since we didn’t get to lesson 15, I assume the homework for this week is to finish lesson 15?


Excellent question, Ven @Khemarato. I was just about to post a message here to everyone about plans for next week.

BTW, it was wonderful to see so many of you there last night and all so engaged with the material and asking excellent questions. What a great group!

While sharing my screen and presenting the lesson I was unable to keep up with all the goings on in the Zoom Chat, but I had a look through them after the class, and was gratified to see that so many of you appreciated that I was going back on doing some of the important topics over again. As @Christie said, up until now the class has been a bit like drinking from a fire hose! And I agree.

For next week, please prepare (if you haven’t already - and I suspect most of you have) your translation of the Passage for Reading from Chapter 14 (page 94), and be ready to read to the class your work if I randomly select you. We will break it up into manageable chunks, so no person called on will be expected to do the whole passage.

Then, we’ll go through the material in the book for Lesson 15, mostly skipping over the Dvanda compounds since I think we covered those pretty well last night. Also, do all the Lesson 15 exercises, which many of you may have a made a good start on already. In the exercises, translating from Pāli into English of the Passage for Reading (a continuation of the story from L.14) and the sentences is far more important, in my view, than the English into Pāli exercises, but these are useful too, so do what you can with them.


For the Pāli to English exercises:

\2. What’s the difference between jānāmi and ājānāmi?

\3. vyākarissāmi vs byākaromi?

\5. Brahmali has “pattacīvaraṃ ādāya” for “robe-and-bowl taking”… could one make a tappurisa compound like “pattacīvaraggāho” instead?


\2. Essentially no difference. If you look up jānāti and ājānāti in PED or DPD you will come to “know” or “understand” :slight_smile: that their definitions largely overlap.

\3. vyākaroti and byākaroti are exactly the same verb, just where some Romanised Pāli texts have it start with a v- and others a b-. But note your question states vyākarissāmi which is the future tense form (and could be written bykārissāmi), and vyākaromi / byākaromi is present tense.

\5. I think in theory one could make a tappurisa compound like that and mean the same, but I have never seen it that way in the canon, whereas pattacīvaraṃ ādāya, with the dvanda compound followed by the absolutive is extremely common.


I am not understanding how kāyaducaritena samannāgatā can be rendered ‘endowed with bad-conduct-of-the-body.’ 'Endowment generally involves something postive. :thinking: & I can’t find the phrase in DN2, tho I’m prepared to believe it’s there somewhere.

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It’s in segments 95.2 and 96.3. But it’s spelled slightly differently, it has a duplication of the “c” in duccaritena, kāyaduccaritena samannāgatā. :smile:


thank you for spotting my spelling mistake. :pray:

DN2, 95.2.
So dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena satte passati cavamāne upapajjamāne hīne paṇīte suvaṇṇe dubbaṇṇe sugate duggate, yathākammūpage satte pajānāti: ‘ime vata bhonto sattā kāyaduccaritena samannāgatā vacīduccaritena samannāgatā manoduccaritena samannāgatā ariyānaṁ upavādakā micchādiṭṭhikā micchādiṭṭhikammasamādānā.

Bhikkhu Bodhi agrees with Warder: "“These beings—who were endowed with bad conduct of body, …” but Sujato translates it “‘These dear beings did bad things by way of body,…”


And like @BethL I’m having a spot of trouble analysing samannāgatā: maybe someone can help?

Pure coincidence! I tried to search for kāyaducaritena and was shown that there are no results. But while typing, my browser must have made a short halt at kāyaduc, so for a split of a second I saw that segment in focus. Then went back to it and found the difference. :smile: :wink:

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Samannāgata Samannāgata (adj.) [saŋ+anvāgata] followed by, possessed of, endowed with (instr.)

(From PED). The word takes the instrumental case. In the Digha quote above it’s pluralized to match ‘ime sattā. ‘

Also see here


And anvāgata breaks down further to anu + ā + √gam + ta.

And Gillian, while in English we might associate being ‘endowed with something’ as a positive, in Pāli in just means ‘having’, ‘possessing’, so it goes with both positive and negative qualities.


A post was merged into an existing topic: John Kelly Pali course 2023: lesson 16a

We’re looking MN9 tonight with Bhante Rahula, and tena hi has popped up here too!

I do get the sense that “well then” in MN9 and “now” in our reading passage both sort of mean, “allrighty, then.” :wink:

@johnk I get what you mean about not trying to tease apart phrases, in the hopes of extracting an expression’s meaning from its individual components. I stared at the entries for tena and hi separately, for way too long! trying to synthesize how “thereby; because of that” + “indeed, because” = “now” :crazy_face:

Very grateful to @Dheerayupa who recommended just popping whole phrases into DPD, and I’ll be doing this going forward:

Similarly, kho (and now, nāmā ) are other instances where I’m trying to resist the temptation to find an English equivalent every time it appears - and instead - to feel out what it’s doing in any given instance.


That is a very good idea!

Imagine if we tried it in English!
“Be that as it may…”
“The upshot is…”
“I’m angling for…”
etc. etc. etc…


Spot on! Now you’ve got the idea. Idiomatic phrases occur in all languages.


haha, and “spot on” is a perfect one - (I’m trying to imagine saying it in Vietnamese - to a puzzled listener asking “what is the spot on?”)

Yes, most others like kuto pana & atha kho I just swallowed up at face value and didn’t look too closely - I think my own knottiness with tena hi was from trying to disambiguate it from its use as a pronoun and then “towards” in “yena…tena” constructions.


My problem is struggling to know when these ‘problematic’ words are stand-alones and when they are part of a set phrase.

With tena hi, I didn’t know to look it up as a set phrase, I just happened to see it pop up on the list! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:


I’m sure your eye will glide over these kinds of phrases soon. (evam eva kho, etc. )


Yeah that just comes with experience. The good thing about Warder, for all its flaws, is that he is at least exposing us to “real” Pāli.