Thread for discussing chapter 15 of Warder for the class on November 14th (with reading passage from chapter 14).
Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca
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So, @johnk : Since we didnāt get to lesson 15, I assume the homework for this week is to finish lesson 15?
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Excellent question, Ven @Khemarato. I was just about to post a message here to everyone about plans for next week.
BTW, it was wonderful to see so many of you there last night and all so engaged with the material and asking excellent questions. What a great group!
While sharing my screen and presenting the lesson I was unable to keep up with all the goings on in the Zoom Chat, but I had a look through them after the class, and was gratified to see that so many of you appreciated that I was going back on doing some of the important topics over again. As @Christie said, up until now the class has been a bit like drinking from a fire hose! And I agree.
For next week, please prepare (if you havenāt already - and I suspect most of you have) your translation of the Passage for Reading from Chapter 14 (page 94), and be ready to read to the class your work if I randomly select you. We will break it up into manageable chunks, so no person called on will be expected to do the whole passage.
Then, weāll go through the material in the book for Lesson 15, mostly skipping over the Dvanda compounds since I think we covered those pretty well last night. Also, do all the Lesson 15 exercises, which many of you may have a made a good start on already. In the exercises, translating from PÄli into English of the Passage for Reading (a continuation of the story from L.14) and the sentences is far more important, in my view, than the English into PÄli exercises, but these are useful too, so do what you can with them.
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For the PÄli to English exercises:
\2. Whatās the difference between jÄnÄmi and ÄjÄnÄmi?
\3. vyÄkarissÄmi vs byÄkaromi?
\5. Brahmali has āpattacÄ«varaį¹ ÄdÄyaā for ārobe-and-bowl takingāā¦ could one make a tappurisa compound like āpattacÄ«varaggÄhoā instead?
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\2. Essentially no difference. If you look up jÄnÄti and ÄjÄnÄti in PED or DPD you will come to āknowā or āunderstandā 
that their definitions largely overlap.
\3. vyÄkaroti and byÄkaroti are exactly the same verb, just where some Romanised PÄli texts have it start with a v- and others a b-. But note your question states vyÄkarissÄmi which is the future tense form (and could be written bykÄrissÄmi), and vyÄkaromi / byÄkaromi is present tense.
\5. I think in theory one could make a tappurisa compound like that and mean the same, but I have never seen it that way in the canon, whereas pattacÄ«varaį¹ ÄdÄya, with the dvanda compound followed by the absolutive is extremely common.
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I am not understanding how kÄyaducaritena samannÄgatÄ can be rendered āendowed with bad-conduct-of-the-body.ā 'Endowment generally involves something postive. 
& I canāt find the phrase in DN2, tho Iām prepared to believe itās there somewhere.
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Itās in segments 95.2 and 96.3. But itās spelled slightly differently, it has a duplication of the ācā in duccaritena, kÄyaduccaritena samannÄgatÄ. 
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thank you for spotting my spelling mistake. 
DN2, 95.2.
So dibbena cakkhunÄ visuddhena atikkantamÄnusakena satte passati cavamÄne upapajjamÄne hÄ«ne paį¹Ä«te suvaį¹į¹e dubbaį¹į¹e sugate duggate, yathÄkammÅ«page satte pajÄnÄti: āime vata bhonto sattÄ kÄyaduccaritena samannÄgatÄ vacÄ«duccaritena samannÄgatÄ manoduccaritena samannÄgatÄ ariyÄnaį¹ upavÄdakÄ micchÄdiį¹į¹hikÄ micchÄdiį¹į¹hikammasamÄdÄnÄ.
Bhikkhu Bodhi agrees with Warder: "āThese beingsāwho were endowed with bad conduct of body, ā¦ā but Sujato translates it āāThese dear beings did bad things by way of body,ā¦ā
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Pure coincidence! I tried to search for kÄyaducaritena and was shown that there are no results. But while typing, my browser must have made a short halt at kÄyaduc, so for a split of a second I saw that segment in focus. Then went back to it and found the difference. 
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SamannÄgata SamannÄgata (adj.) [saÅ+anvÄgata] followed by, possessed of, endowed with (instr.)
(From PED). The word takes the instrumental case. In the Digha quote above itās pluralized to match āime sattÄ. ā
Also see here
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And anvÄgata breaks down further to anu + Ä + āgam + ta.
And Gillian, while in English we might associate being āendowed with somethingā as a positive, in PÄli in just means āhavingā, āpossessingā, so it goes with both positive and negative qualities.
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Weāre looking MN9 tonight with Bhante Rahula, and tena hi has popped up here too!
I do get the sense that āwell thenā in MN9 and ānowā in our reading passage both sort of mean, āallrighty, then.ā
@johnk I get what you mean about not trying to tease apart phrases, in the hopes of extracting an expressionās meaning from its individual components. I stared at the entries for tena and hi separately, for way too long! trying to synthesize how āthereby; because of thatā + āindeed, becauseā = ānowā 
Very grateful to @Dheerayupa who recommended just popping whole phrases into DPD, and Iāll be doing this going forward:
Similarly, kho (and now, nÄmÄ ) are other instances where Iām trying to resist the temptation to find an English equivalent every time it appears - and instead - to feel out what itās doing in any given instance.
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That is a very good idea!
Imagine if we tried it in English!
āBe that as it mayā¦ā
āThe upshot isā¦ā
āIām angling forā¦ā
etc. etc. etcā¦
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Spot on! Now youāve got the idea. Idiomatic phrases occur in all languages.
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haha, and āspot onā is a perfect one - (Iām trying to imagine saying it in Vietnamese - to a puzzled listener asking āwhat is the spot on?ā)
Yes, most others like kuto pana & atha kho I just swallowed up at face value and didnāt look too closely - I think my own knottiness with tena hi was from trying to disambiguate it from its use as a pronoun and then ātowardsā in āyenaā¦tenaā constructions.
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My problem is struggling to know when these āproblematicā words are stand-alones and when they are part of a set phrase.
With tena hi, I didnāt know to look it up as a set phrase, I just happened to see it pop up on the list! 
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Iām sure your eye will glide over these kinds of phrases soon. (evam eva kho, etc. )
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Yeah that just comes with experience. The good thing about Warder, for all its flaws, is that he is at least exposing us to ārealā PÄli.
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