Thread for discussing chapter 17 of Warder for the class on December 5th.
Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca
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@johnk, please correct me if I’m wrong: you said we are to prepare Lesson 17 to the end of the reading passage?
And the Pāli to English sentences
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Thanks very much for your note, @christie. Hope to see you back with us the following week.
Which reminds me that we are now getting into the time of year when for many of us lay people involved in the class, our calendars may be filling up with other holiday season events. We will take a 2-week break from the class over the Christmas / New Year period. Here is the planned Pāli class schedule:
Dec 5, 12, and 19 - yes, class
Dec 26, Jan 2 - no class
Jan 9, 16, 23, 30, Feb … - yes, class
My goal is to get us all through to completion of Warder chapter 20. Then these classes will stop. So our last class will be either Feb 6 or 13. We’ll see how we go. By then, you will all have a very solid foundation of Pāli and could complete the Warder book on your own. We will keep the Discuss & Discover forum open for questions, which I and, I’m sure, Stephen or others, would be happy to answer.
On March 4 (March 3, in the Americas), I will start a new set of beginner classes at 9am Brisbane time, which is 6pm USA East coast time [or 7pm, when DST starts up again].
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Given I am not able to attend class tonight, I would like to submit my attempt at doing the exercises for Lesson 17. These are presented in quadrilinear format (except for some sentences in the reading passage where words from previous sentences have been used):
- pali sentence
- grammatical annotation (the symbols are based on those described on my website)
- literal word translation
- natural English translation
Warder Lesson 17
Passage for reading :
bhutapubbaṃ mahā sakaṭasattho sakaṭasahassaṃ puratthimā janapadā pacchimaṃ janapadam agamāsi. so yena yena gacchati khippam eva pariyādiyati tiṇakaṭṭhodakaṃ haritakavaṇṇaṃ. tasmiṃ kho pana satthe dve satthavāhā ahesuṃ ; eko pañcannaṃ sakaṭasatānaṃ, eko pañcannaṃ sakaṭasatānaṃ. atha kho tesaṃ satthavāhānaṃ etad ahosi : ayaṃ kho mahā sakatasattho sakatasahassam. te mayaṃ yena yena gacchāma khippam eva pariyādiyati tiṇakaṭṭhodakaṃ haritakavaṇṇaṃ. yan nūna mayaṃ imaṃ satthaṃ dvidhā vibhajeyyāma ekato pañca sakatasatāni.
bhutapubbaṃ mahā sakaṭasattho sakaṭasahassaṃ puratthimā janapadā pacchimaṃ janapadam agamāsi.
(bhūtapubbaṃ) / 
①⨂(maha) / ①⨀(sakaṭasattha) / 
①⨀(sakaṭasahassa) / ⑤⨀(puratthima) / ⑤⨀(janapada) / ②⨀(pacchima) / ②⨀(janapada) / 
⨀(agamāsi)
once upon a time / great / caravan / one thousand cars / from eastern / from country / to last / to country / left for
Once upon a time, a great caravan with a thousand carts went to the last country from eastern country.
so yena yena gacchati khippam eva pariyādiyati tiṇakaṭṭhodakaṃ haritakavaṇṇaṃ.
①⨀(ta) / (yena yena) / 
⨀(gacchati) / (khippaṃ) / (eva) / ⨀(pariyādiyati) / ②⨀(tiṇakaṭṭhodaka) / (haritaka) / ②⨀(vaṇṇa)
he / wherever / go / quickly / only / uses up / grass, wood and water / green colour
Wherever it goes, it really uses up green grass quickly.
tasmiṃ kho pana satthe dve satthavāhā ahesuṃ ;
in that / indeed / however / caravans / two / caravan merchants / were
In that situation however there were two caravan merchants in the caravans;
eko pañcannaṃ sakaṭasatānaṃ, eko pañcannaṃ sakaṭasatānaṃ.
one with 500 carts, another with 500 carts.
atha kho tesaṃ satthavāhānaṃ etad ahosi :
After that the caravan merchant thought this:
ayaṃ kho mahā sakatasattho sakatasahassam.
This is indeed a great caravan with a thousand carts.
te mayaṃ yena yena gacchāma khippam eva pariyādiyati tiṇakaṭṭhodakaṃ haritakavaṇṇaṃ.
Wherever we go they use up green grass quickly.
yan nūna mayaṃ imaṃ satthaṃ dvidhā vibhajeyyāma ekato pañca sakatasatāni.
(nūna) / ②⨀(sattha) / (dvidhā) / 
⨂(vibhajati) / ⑤⨀(eka) / ②⨂(sakaṭasata)
indeed/could it be / we / this / caravan / in two pieces / should distribute / from one / 5 / one hundred carts
Perhaps we can divide this caravan from one into two pieces of 500 carts.
Translate into English :
tena hi brāhmaṇa suṇāhi, bhāsissāmi
(tena hi) / ⓪⨀(brāhmaṇa) / 
⨀(suṇāti) / 
⨀(bhāsati)
therefore / O Brahman / may you listen / I will speak
Therefore, O Brahman, please listen for I will speak.
dīghaṃ assasāmi
(dīghaṃ) / ⨀(assasati)
deeply / I breath
I breath deeply.
mā ekena dve agamittha
(mā) / ③⨀(eka) / 
②⨂(dvi) / ⨂(agami)
do not / by one / two / you all went
You did not go by ones and pairs.
disvā va mayaṃ taṃ bhagavantaṃ Gotamaṃ gamissāma
(disvā va) / ①⨂(ahaṃ) / ①⨀(ta) / ②⨀(bhagavant gotama) / ⨂(gamissati)
having seen / or / we / that / Blessed Gotama / will go
Having seen, we will go to that Gotama the Blessed One.
devā sabhāyaṃ sannisinnā honti
①⨂(deva) / 
⑦⨀(sabhā) / ①⨂(sannisinna) / ⨂(hoti)
gods / at assembly / seated together / are
Gods are seated together at assembly hall
santān’ eva nu kho saddāni nāssosi, udāhu asantāni
(santān’ eva nu kho) / ②⨂(sadda) / ⨀(nāssosi) / (udāhu)
continue / only / ? / indeed / sound / did not hear / 2nd part / not tranquil/calm
furthermore, did he not hear the sound, and secondly was he not calm?
aham pana agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajissāmi
①⨀(ahaṃ) / (pana) / ⑤⨀(agāra) / ②⨀(anagāriya) / ⨀(pabbajati)
I / but / from household life / to homeless state / will renounce
However, I will renounce from household life to a homeless state.
katame pañca
①⨂(katama) / ①⨂(pañca)
what/which / five
Which Five?
kāmesu micchā na caritabbā
⑦⨂(kāma) / (micchā na) / ①⨂(caritabba)
to sensual pleasure / false / no / should be lived/practised
(I) should not be wrongly living a life of sensual pleasure.
yaṃ sukho bhavaṃ taṃ sukhā mayam, yaṃ dukkho bhavaṃ taṃ dukkhā mayaṃ
①⨀(ya) / ①⨀(sukha) / ①⨀(bhava) / ②⨀(ta) / ②⨂(sukha) / ①⨂(ahaṃ) …
whatever / pleasant / existence / that / pleasant / us …
Whatever pleasant existence is , that is pleasant for us, whatever unpleasant existence is, that is unpleasant for us.
Some minor questions from the reading passage in advance of class. Will try to remember to ask these while we review. 
- so yena yena gacchati khippaṃ eva pariyādiyati tiṇakaṭṭhodakaṃ haritakavaṇṇaṃ
What is “eva” doing in this sentence? I’m thinking - of its many definitions in DPD - perhaps “still”? i.e. no matter where we went, we still managed to use up all the natural resources in every location.
- tasmiṃ kho pana satthe dve satthavāhā ahesuṃ
Tasmiṃ locates the caravanleaders in that caravan, right?
3.eko pañcannam sakata-atānaṃ, eko pañcannam sakatasatānaṃ.
I thought this was dative, in that it “assigned” a caravan leader to each caravan of 500. Bob for Caravan A, Joe for Caravan B.
But Ajahn Brahmali said it was genitive, as in the 500 carts belonged to each caravan leader. If this were the case, wouldn’t the genitive declension be applied to the leader, and not the carts?
I went back to Meiland’s example of genitive: the brahmin’s house’: brāhmaṇassa gehaṃ.
Here, the brāhman gets genitive declension; the house is in accusative.
-
atha kho tesaṃ satthavāhānaṃ etad ahosi:
“Tesaṃ” here is dative? like, “for these caravanleaders, this thought occurred”? -
te mayaṃ yena yena gacchāma khippam eva pariyādiyati tiṇakaṭṭhodakaṃ
Ajahn Brahmali says “te mayaṃ” is there as an “emphatic we.” Does this mean to emphasize themselves, versus any other caravan? -
disvā va maya taṃ bhagavantaṃ Gotamaṃ gamissāma
One definition for “va” in the DPD is “as soon as.” Is that what it means here? (We’ve only seen va meaning “or” so far, which doesn’t work here really) -
kāmesu micchā na caritabbā
Ajahn Brahmali notes that “micchā” is normally an adverb - i.e. describing caritabbā. Did we say in class that it was the opposite of sammā, which I think is an adjective? e.g. sammādiṭṭhi ? -
yaṃ sukho bhavaṃ taṃ sukhā mayaṃ, yaṃ dukkho bhavaṃ taṃ dukkhā mayaṃ
No specific question - just asking if we can deconstruct it slowly in class? I’m not sure of the mechanics of the whole thing
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Good questions. Don’t have time to answer these now. But please do raise them in class.
See you in class in a couple of hours!
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Very good and thorough work, Christie. 
I don’t have time to go through it now, but we will in class, so I hope you can listen to the recording afterwards.
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It’s augmenting khippaṃ. The third of the possibilities below seems the most likely: “very quickly”.
-
that very…, the same …; exactly that…; just …
-
only, merely, just.
-
indeed, really; certainly; very; absolutely; even, still.
-
like, as; as it were. (Though iva is the much commoner form).
Since geha is a neuter noun, the form gehaṃ could be nominative or accusative.
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Hi John, No worries - I posted more like a “checklist” for things we could hit on in class - not really for you to hit point by point - thank you so much! Appreciate all your hard work and generosity to us as always, and sadhu for another fun class 
That’s very helpful, Bhante. Thank you so much!
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Yeah, that’s correct I think.
That’s not how I took it… I took it as emphatic more in the sense of “oh no! We’re the ones destroying the countryside! We better do something about this!”
As we covered in class: vā is “or” (with a long ā). va here is eva
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Hello Karuna. Between last night and the answers others have posted here, have all your questions on this lesson now been answered?
I took it as genitive. One of the merchants was to be leader of five hundred carts, and the other likewise. But, interpreting it as dative works fine too.
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Christie, pacchima can mean last but it also means west (western), which makes more sense in context here - the great caravan of carts going from the eastern to the western part of the country.
it really uses up green grass quickly
Not just green grass, but firewood and water as well. Note the dvandva compound.
After that the caravan merchant thought this.
Merchants (plural). Literally, it occurred to these caravan leaders.
You did not go by ones and pairs.
Do not both go the same way.
Having seen, we will go to that Gotama the Blessed One.
The va after disvā is important here, since it gives the sense of ‘only’.
Only after we have seen that Blessed One, Gotama, will we go.
santān’ eva nu kho saddāni nāssosi, udāhu asantāni
Santāni and asantāni are adjectives formed from the present participle of atthi, i.e. sant, both qualifying saddāni. Thus existing and non-existing. Listen to recording to see the discussion of this tricky sentence.
Whatever pleasant existence is , that is pleasant for us, whatever unpleasant existence is, that is unpleasant for us.
Here, bhavaṃ is a form of respectful address (see Warder, p.35). Thus,
If your honour is happy, we are happy; if your honour is unhappy, we are unhappy.
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Thanks John, much appreciated!
Hi @johnk
After reviewing your very helpful feedback, I would like to submit the following amended translations. Can you check whether they are acceptable?
so yena yena gacchati khippam eva pariyādiyati tiṇakaṭṭhodakaṃ haritakavaṇṇaṃ.
①⨀(ta) (yena yena) ⨀(gacchati) (khippaṃ) (eva) ⨀(pariyādiyati) ②⨀(tiṇakaṭṭhodaka) (haritaka) ②⨀(vaṇṇa)
he / wherever / go / quickly / only / uses up / grass, wood and water / green colour
Wherever it goes, it really uses up fresh grass, firewood and water quickly.
mā ekena dve agamittha
(mā) ③⨀(eka) ②⨂(dvi) ⨂(agami)
do not / by one / two / you all went
Don’t go together (two must not go by one direction/way)
disvā va mayaṃ taṃ bhagavantaṃ Gotamaṃ gamissāma
(disvā va) ①⨂(ahaṃ) ①⨀(ta) ②⨀(bhagavant gotama) ⨂(gamissati)
having seen / only / we / that / Blessed Gotama / will go
Only after having seen, we will go to that Gotama the Blessed One.
(I am not sure that disvā refers to Gotama, as I was under the impression the absolutive can have different patients (kamma) from the main verb)
santān’ eva nu kho saddāni nāssosi, udāhu asantāni
①⨂(santa) (eva nu kho) ①⨂(sadda) ⨀(nāssosi) (udāhu) ①⨂(asanta)
existing / really / ? / indeed / sound / he did not hear / 2nd part / non-existing
Was the sound he did not hear existing, or was (the sound) non-existent?
yaṃ sukho bhavaṃ taṃ sukhā mayam, yaṃ dukkho bhavaṃ taṃ dukkhā mayaṃ
①⨀(ya) ①⨀(sukha) ⓪⨀(bhavanta) ②⨀(ta) ②⨂(sukha) ①⨂(ahaṃ) …
whatever / pleasant / existence / that / pleasant / us …
Whatever is pleasant to your honourable, that is pleasant for us, whatever is unpleasant to your honourable, that is unpleasant for us.
(I took some liberties with adding particles to the translation)
I would translate this as, “We will go only after we have seen that blessed Gotama.”
Otherwise disvā is hanging there without any patient at all - having seen what?
You’re right that absolutives generally have different objects(patients) than the main verb. And, as we know, the subject must be the same (here mayaṃ). If the subject is different, then the absolutive can’t be used, but rather a locative or genitive absolute construction.
The rest is fine, Christie.
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