John Kelly Pali course 2023: Warder lesson 18

Thread for discussing chapter 18 of Warder for the class on December 12th.

Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca

Homework for this class: Translate reading passage 1 and translate the Pali sentences into English.


I have typed out the Lesson 18 reading passages in 14 pt. font and double-spaced. This makes it more readable for me.

Feel free to download & use (depending on your learning style :heart_eyes:) I double-checked the spelling but there may be an errant typo or two.

Warder Lesson 18 Passsage.pdf (59.6 KB)


A tempting shortcut! But my learning style benefits from typing the passages phrase by phrase and checking carefully for typos. I love it that I’m gradually getting faster. (still extremely slow tho)

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Sorry I have to miss class today: it conflicts with our Pātimokkha (happy new moon day :new_moon: everyone!)

My only question from the lesson is: karitvā can mean “having compared”?

And my only comment is: :partying_face: our first swear word! :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

See you all next week :heart:



this reads to me like “kīna”, but I’m pretty sure it should read hīna, is my interpretation correct?

Screenshot 2023-12-12 at 1.09.31 pm

Also, Simon and I will be at Ajahn Brahmāli’s talk tonight and will try to join in, but aren’t 100% sure if we’ll make it.



Will miss you in class tonight, bhante. You bring a lot to the group. Happy new moon day!

Karoti is an extremely flexible word - it can just about mean anything you want it to mean! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Here is more about the word from the DPD:

Meanings of karoti:

  1. to build, erect Mhvs.19, Mhvs.36 Mhvs.20, Mhvs.9 (Caus.).
  2. to act, perform, make, do Vin.i.155; Ja.i.24; Ja.ii.153 (tathā karomi yathā na… I prevent cp. lat. facio ne…); Ja.iii.297; Pv.i.8#8 = Pv.ii.6#19; Mhvs.3, Mhvs.1; Mhvs.7, Mhvs.22.
  3. to produce Dhp-a.i.172.
  4. to write, compose; Pv-a.287.
  5. to put on, dress Vin.ii.277; Ja.i.9.
  6. to impose (a punishment) Mhvs.4, Mhvs.14.
  7. to turn into (with loc. or two acc.) Ja.ii.32; Mhvs.9, Mhvs.27.
  8. to use as (with two acc.) Ja.i.113; Ja.ii.24.
  9. to bring into (with loc.) Ja.v.454 Ja.v.10. to place (with loc.) Ja.v.274; (with acc. of the person Dhp.162.)

The meanings of karoti are varied according to the word with which it is connected; it would be impossible and unnecessary to give an exhaustive list of all its various shades. Only a few illustrations may suffice: aṃse k ̊ to place on one’s shoulder Ja.i.9; antarāyaṃ k ̊ to prevent Ja.i.232; ādiṃ k ̊ (c. acc.) to begin with; nimittaṃ k ̊ to give a hint DN.ii.103; pātarāsaṃ k ̊ to breakfast; mānasaṃ k ̊ to make up one’s mind; mahaṃ k ̊ to hold a festival DN.ii.165; massuṃ k ̊ to trim the beard Dhp-a.i.253; musāvādaṃ k ̊ to tell a lie; rajjaṃ k ̊ to reign SN.i.218 vase k ̊ to bring into one’s power Ja.i.79; sandhiṃ k ̊ to make an agreement Mhvs.16; sinehaṃ k ̊ to become fond of Ja.i.190
■ Similarly, cpd with adverbs: alaṃ k ̊ to make much of, i.e. to adorn, embellish; dūrato k ̊ to keep at a distance, i.e. keep free from Pv-a.17 Sdhp.287; purak k ̊ (purakkharoti) to place before, i.e. to honour Pv.iii.7#1
■ Note phrase kiṃ karissati what difference does it make? (Cp. Ger. was macht’s) DN.i.120 or what about… Ja.i.152.

Sk. karoti, *qṷer to form, to build (or plait, weave? see kamma), cp. kar-man, Lith. kùrti to build, O.Tr. cruth form; Lat. corpus, with p-addition as Sk. kṛpa, kḷp = kṛp. Derived are kalpa → kappa kalpate → kappeti

See also: kamma



pr. 3 sg.

does, makes; acts; performs; acts for the advantage or injury of another; (esp. absol.) puts, places

See also: kubbati, kurute



| karo.ti

End of DPD quoting

Note: One of the meanings shown above by NCPED is places. Hence in the example sentence purisena purisa karitvā, “having placed one man with another”, seems to imply “compared”.


Thanks John.

Still a bit unsatisfying to me, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ languages are allowed to be weird and idiomatic sometimes I guess…

Let’s just agree to not translate it as “Having done a man…” :see_no_evil:


Indeed! Or perhaps one could translate it as having made a man with a man, if they were referring to Dr Frankenstein’s efforts with Igor! :rofl:


Hello Frank. Yes, your interpretation is correct.

I assume you are referring to the vocabulary words on Warder, p.129. Here’s a clue you could have used too - within each grouping of vocabulary words, Warder puts the words in Pāli alphabetical order. Thus, if it actually were kīna it would have appeared in the Adjectives list between kāsāya and dibba.

Also, Simon and I will be at Ajahn Brahmāli’s talk tonight and will try to join in, but aren’t 100% sure if we’ll make it.

Oh dear, it might be a small class this evening. Thanks very much for letting me know, and hope to see you next week.


And I am afraid that I feel a responsibility to watch my granddaughter dance in the annual performance this evening.

Please make sure that the recording happens - a lot of us are going to need it!

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I hear the theme song of “The Godfather” in the background …

To be a “made man”, I think it would be better to be a khattiyo than a brāhmaṇo …


For those who missed today’s class… next week Lesson 19 grammar + translate paragraph 1 from reading passage 1:

te taṁ satthaṁ dvidhā … mā yoggāni kilamethā ti (Pg 145)


We’re skipping lesson 18 reading passage #2?

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And a supplemental assignment (I think John offered this lightly):

Memorize the following for Pāli practice:
Dhp 277-279

“Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā”ti,
yadā paññāya passati;
Atha nibbindati dukkhe,
esa maggo visuddhiyā.

“Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā”ti,
yadā paññāya passati;
Atha nibbindati dukkhe,
esa maggo visuddhiyā.

“Sabbe dhammā anattā”ti,
yadā paññāya passati;
Atha nibbindati dukkhe,
esa maggo visuddhiyā.


Thank you venerable @acala
Did anyone record today’s class, and could share it with us? I could not attend this time.

Ven. @Khemarato.bhikkhu John didn’t say explicitly we were skipping Lesson 18’s second reading passage but he was clear about moving on the Lesson 19 re: homework for next week. At least, that’s what I heard.

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Oh no Beth, were you swearing here? (Just a Pāli joke :innocent:)


Thanks for posting this, Beth. I was planning to get around to it myself, but you’ve saved me the trouble. One small correction, though. Each of the first lines of the three gathas needs an end-quote ti on it.
Thus sabbe saṅkhārā aniccāti, sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhāti, and sabbe saṅkhārā anattāti.
The ti is both needed for grammatical correctness and for making the lines of poetry scan correctly with the right number of syllables.


Hello Luis. We missed you yesterday. Please contact @Sumana for a copy of the recording. She is the one who kindly takes care of this.


Thanks for bringing this up Ven Khemarato.

The passage really is too long to spend time doing it together during class time. But good idea for us to do some of it. So extra homework for everyone (you can all thank Bhante! :laughing:). Please prepare the first paragraph of Lesson 18, passage 2 - from bhūtapubbaṃ rājā Daḷhanemi nāma ahosi to yagghe, deva, jāneyyāsi, dibbaṃ cakka-ratanaṃ antarahitan ti. As well as first paragraph of Lesson 19, Passage 1, as already mentioned.