John Kelly Pali course 2024: Warder lesson 20a

Thread for discussing chapter 20 of Warder for the class on January 16th 2024.

Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca

Homework for this class:

See the following post.

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Modification to Homework for Lesson 20a

What I set for homework at the end of last class is far too much, I feel. Apologies!

Here is the revised homework:

  1. Translate 2nd paragraph of Reading 2 from Lesson 19. (pp.147-148)

  2. Translate Reading 3 from Lesson 19. (pp.150-151)

  3. Learn part of the new grammar in Warder lesson 20; just the new Declensions (pp.152-top 155) and familiarise yourselves with the new vocabulary associated with these declensions. (pp.156-158)

We will complete lesson 20 the following week.

Of course, if you are super-keen, always feel free to do more of the passages than what I set, and what we have time to go over in class. And, as usual, questions (if any) on these can be asked in the discussion forum.


Oh dear, I only just saw that the HW has changed!

Anyway, I have questions from the HW I have done so far:
Jāte kho pana, bhikkhave, vipassimhi kumāre bandhumato rañño paṭivedesuṁ:
I initially translated this as: Monks, when prince Vipassi was born to King Bandhumant, they announced:
Is it basically just from the context (especially once you read the next bit) that you can tell that it is actually they announced to King Bandhumant?

This is from Lesson 20 - Passage 1
'dhir atthu kira, bho, jāti nāma, yatra hi nāma jātassa jarā paññāyissatī’ti.
After scratching my head for a long time, I looked at Ajahn Brahmali’s translation which is: Truly (kira), your honour, let there be shame (dhir) on (this thing) called birth, in as much as for one who has been born
old age will be discerned!

I’m not quite sure where the “discerned” is coming from and is “yatra hi nāma” translated as “in as much?

I understand jātassa jarā paññāyissati = for one who is born there will be old age I’m just not quite understanding the rest of the sentence…

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The verb ‘pativedeti’ means to make known, declare, announce. Here it’s in aorist 3rd person plural- ‘they announced’.
King Bandhumant is in dative as it is announced to him.
The beginning of the sentence is a locative absolute construction.

For ‘yatra…’ see the PED entry for ‘yatra’, where this very sentence is discussed.


Thunderstorms and no power… not sure if I will be in class today!

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I’m sorry John, I have to apologize for today’s meeting, my son is sick and I have to take care of him.


Here’s a pdf on the 5 things for frequent reflection that John shared with the class of 2020.

5 things for daily reflection +Gr.pdf (159.9 KB)


Super basic question here :thinking:

In Lesson 20, first reading passage, in the following sentence:

yuttāni kho te deva bhaddāni bhaddāni yānāni, yassa dāni kālam maññasī ti

I understand from Warder pg. 115 that te may be used as an enclitic for 2ps in the genitive. If this is the case here, how is it an enclitic? Perhaps I’m not understanding fully what an enclitic is.

Thank you.

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I suppose it can be read either as , ‘the carriages are yoked/hitched for you’ (dative)
or, ‘your carriages are yoked’. (genitive).

The meaning seems close.

(Literally: yoked indeed for you/of you lord very best carriages
for that now the time you think)


It is enclitic simply because it does not appear at the very beginning of a sentence (or clause), but very near the beginning - here the te is shortly after yuttāni, with only another enclitic indeclinable kho intervening.
And, yes, it’s meaning is genitive or dative - either works, as Stephen correctly points out.