John Kelly Pali course 2024: Warder lesson 21

Thread for discussing chapter 21 of Warder for the class on January 30th 2024.

Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca

Homework for this class:

  1. Study all of grammatical material and vocab in Lesson 21 (pp.168-176)
  2. Translate Lesson 21, Passage for Reading 1, all (pp.176-177)
  3. Translate Lesson 21, Passage for Reading 2, paragraph 1 (p.177)

Question 1:
DPD gives the f. sg. nom. for bhotī as bhoti - is this a mistake?

Question 2:
Is this what Warder means when he refers to the verb ah as a defective verb on pg 170?

Also this might be fun to watch while translating Passage 2 :grin:


Rather disappointed that Reading Passage #1 was totally lost on me except for root words here and there plus recognition of some inflections and tenses …

Upon cheating a few times , I could piece together the meaning. (Couldn’t find everything in the DPD and I even checked Margaret Cone’s ancient dictionary!) Have to assume the context would have made a big difference :roll_eyes: Ven @acala has provided motivation to plunge into Reading 2 :heart_eyes:


I think bhoti/bhotī is one of those nouns that can go either way, like itthi/itthī, see Warder p.152 at the bottom of the page.

Is this what Warder means when he refers to the verb ah as a defective verb on pg 170?

Yes, that is exactly right. At least, as I uderstand the term.


Don’t be discouraged. It is definitely not an easy passage. We’ll work through it together tonight.

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I’m a bit lost with what Warder wants to convey here:

At the left he is saying that the root man means consider. I’ve found this word in a dictionary as maññati.
But what does he mean with mano, manva and manna? Is this a declined form of maññati or sammannati? Which form is that?



I have started assembling a list of grammatical questions to ask about this passage, but will leave it on hold til after class, when hopefully I’ll have less to worry you about John! Better to spend my time taking a nap so that I’m fully functional this evening!

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Never entirely sure about Warder, but the PED entry is helpful here:

Sammannati [saŋ+man, fr. Vedic manute, manvate, for the usual manyate: see maññati]

Skt manyate becomes P maññati.
The Skt ‘manvate’ becomes P mannati, prefixed with sam-

(I suppose this explains why this form does not have the palatal nasal (ñ), but rather the dental nasal (n).

In Pali, ‘(a)va’ often reduces to ‘o’ e.g. bhavati —> hoti, Skt avalokayati —> oloketi, etc.

The Skt root ‘man’ can mean ‘consider’, think.

Also see PED entry for ‘Mano & Mana(s)’ p. 522.

Thanks! Do I get this right that sammannati can also be sammanoti or sammanvati?

I’m not aware of either of those being attested forms.

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I probably won’t be able make many of these now since my kamma was signing up for college so now I have to wake up for class a few hours after (it’s a public speaking class and I’m actually going to talk about nothingness from Buddhism today), but I’ve certainly appreciated yours and Bhante Sujato’s Pāli teachings along with the dedicated classmates :smile:


Dear John, due to my absence from the last two sessions, I am no longer up to date with the grammar and vocabulary and am not able to do all the translations at the moment. That’s a real shame, I’ve learned a lot and and still am very motivated. I really want to continue. I hope there will be another opportunity in the near future. I am most grateful to you @johnk John and @sujato!



Hello @bran and @asci. It’s been a great pleasure having you in the class.
But, time permitting, please don’t stop your Pāli studies. And this applies to everyone in the class since the Tuesday evenings are now winding down - just two weeks left.

All of you can continue working your way through the rest of Warder on your own, and I strongly urge you to do so. The forum will remain open for Pāli questions and I and others like Stephen will answer them as we can.


John, I have no idea how to use this :frowning:

In MahaSatipatthana Sutta, in the Dhammanupassana section, in the four noble truths,
katamanca bhikkave yampiccham na labhati tampi dukkham: Jatidhammanam bhikkave sattanam evam icca uppajjati: aho vata mayam na jati dhamma assama, …

I’m sorry I haven’t set up under dots and all that because I learn in Sinhala script!

Just want to confirm that assama is derived from AS or atthi

Thank you very much for teaching us so well - although I haven’t placed much importance on grammar. Focus is mainly on the teaching.



Yes, Suroo, assāma is from the verb atthi. It is optative 1st person plural, “May we not be”.

aho vata mayaṃ na jāti dhammā assāma - “Oh, if only we may not be of the nature to be reborn!”

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Thank you very much John :pray:


Dear @johnk thanks very much! I am definitely continuing with the studies and will not give up this treasure. I hope the opportunity will come to take on another Pāli course for systematic repetition and refreshment of what I have learned so far and will try to memorize.