John Kelly's Pāli Class 2024 (G&K) Class 2

Can someone direct me to the class recoerdings please.

2 Likes

Ven. @Sobhana provides an excellent method for decomposing the pāli sentence.

I think I’m not far off doing this in a chicken-scratch kind of way. Especially for these types of formulas in the Aṅguttara Nikāya. So here’s how I decomposed, in Microsoft Word, AN 4.106 (the first paragraph in Reading Passage #4):

the bhikkhu janeti (generates) chandaṃ [desire for];
vāyamati [strives for];
viriyaṃ ārabhati [arouses himself energetically for];
cittaṃ paggaṇhāti [takes up the mind / uplifts the mind for];
padahati [applies himself to];
anuppādāya [the non-arising]
anuppannānaṃ [(of) unarisen] pāpakānaṃ [bad] akusalānaṃ [unwholesome] dhammānaṃ.

(I didn’t intuit mental states for dhammānaṃ (had to look at the answer key eventually) but figured it was stuff to contemplate or something along those lines.)

Looked for the verb(s) first, put them at the top.
Figured out who or what is the subject.
Put the objects last.
If there had been enclitics in this sentence – which there weren’t – I would have put them last. Then figured out where they might add meaning.

Thus chopping up the sentence like it’s a bunch of puzzle pieces.

Doing this particular sentence in this way took me a while. Then, once I had it, the remaining three were much easier.

:elephant: :heart_eyes: :pray:t3:

4 Likes

More motivation for me re: Passage #4 (AN 1.406-409):

The formula is very similar to The Four Great Efforts that constitute sammāvāyāma or wise effort on the Noble 8fold path.

Amazing! :heart_eyes: Anything to help with vocabulary :rofl: I’ll do whatever it takes

AN 4.13

1 Like

Thank you, this was very helpful.

1 Like

Please send an email to @Sumana and request to be added to her distribution list :blush:

A post was merged into an existing topic: John Kelly’s Pāḷi Class 2024 (G&K) Class 3

The analysis that I sent in on Sunday was incorrect. The noun following yathayidaṃ has to be nominative, not accusative. It is not the mind which is the object of seeing, but the mind which is the subject of leading! “I do not see even a single thing like the mind, which leads to such harm when untrained, unguarded, unprotected, and unrestrained.” The way yathayidaṃ works is more clear in further reading about pamādo heedlessness.

1 Like

@johnk @stephen, regarding Reading Passage #3 (AN 1.308):

“Nāhaṁ, bhikkhave, aññaṁ ekadhammampi samanupassāmi yena anuppannā vā kusalā dhammā nuppajjanti uppannā vā kusalā dhammā parihāyanti yathayidaṁ, bhikkhave, micchādiṭṭhi. Micchādiṭṭhikassa, bhikkhave, anuppannā ceva kusalā dhammā nuppajjanti uppannā ca kusalā dhammā parihāyantī”ti.

In the first sentence, are the verbs uppajjanti and parihāyanti acting as adjectives (somehow) modifying the plural nouns kusalā dhammā? The English translation treats those two verbs as if they are 1st person singular conjugations agreeing with aññaṃ ekadhammaṃ. And I don’t see how it could be translated any other way, in order to make sense.

My (completely untested) chicken-scratch method of decomposing a pāli sentence hangs in the balance :astonished: depending on your answer!

yena anuppannā vā kusalā dhammā nuppajjanti uppannā vā kusalā dhammā parihāyanti

…by which unarisen wholesome dhammas don’t arise or arisen wholesome dhammas diminish…

Here, ‘anuppanna’ and ‘uppanna’ and ‘kusala’ are adjectives.

Is this sort of what you had?
(The first ‘vā’ is just reflected back)
(“decompose” sounds a bit ominous??)

1 Like

Ven. @Sobhana thank you for such diligence and attention to the translation :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: . I was inspired to check out AN 1.31 again not only for the grammar but for the meaning! Although, for the life of me, I can’t find an exact match between G&K Reading Passage #2 and what’s in AN.

I was reminded this may be an equational sentence where both words on either side will be in the same case. This from the Warder book. Current students: my comment is totally irrelevant!

1 Like

Yes, that would be it.

Why did I have “decompose” on the brain… I need to take more walks in the sunlight :rofl:

3 Likes

I spent way too many minutes struggling with the same question … finding the useful explanation in english grammar: “Adjective clauses, also known as adjectival clauses or relative clauses, are a type of dependent clause that describes or modifies nouns, just like individual adjectives do. Like all clauses, adjective clauses contain a subject and a verb. You can identify adjective clauses because they usually begin with a relative pronoun like that , which , or who .” How to Use Adjective Clauses, With Examples | Grammarly

1 Like

Usually the equational sentence doesn’t have any verbs, just a series of nouns “this [is] that”. Our sentence could be an example of apposition:
“One dhamma, the mind, leads to great harm when untamed.” Apposition - English Grammar Today - Cambridge Dictionary Maybe @johnk can explain it .

3 Likes

These verbs are describing the actions of the dhammas, arising and diminishing.

(See my quick translation above)

2 Likes

Hi Beth. This is quite a tricky sentence, especially if you are looking at @sujato’s translation of AN 1.308 on SC, as he has shuffled some things around. The essential meaning is there, but relating the Pāli to the English shown is almost impossible.

This sentence can be broken down (decomposed? :smile:) into two parts. The main sentence:
Nāhaṁ, bhikkhave, aññaṁ ekadhammampi samanupassāmi … yathayidaṁ, bhikkhave, micchādiṭṭhi.

And the relative clause which is stuck in the middle of it … yena anuppannā vā kusalā dhammā nuppajjanti uppannā vā kusalā dhammā parihāyanti

So the main sentence says “I do not see even another single thing … that is, wrong view.” [leaving out the vocatives for clarity]

Then the relative clause states " … by which unarisen skillful mental states do not arise, or arisen skillful mental states disappear …". Both uppajjanti and parihāyanti are the verbs of this clause. [There are two verbs because the clause has two parts separated by (“or”). I don’t know where you got the idea they were some kind of adjective.

Does this help?

BTW - I will be going through this sentence in some detail in our next class.

BB’s translation is quite clear ““Bhikkhus, I do not see even a single thing on account of which unarisen wholesome qualities do not arise and arisen wholesome qualities decline so much as wrong view.”

2 Likes

Not exactly sure what your question for me is, Ayya.

My question is about word yathayidaṃ, why it is translated as “that is”.

“Such as this” is probably a better translation.
BB has “so much as”, Bhante Sujato has “like”. Yathayidaṃ breaks downs as yatha-y-idaṃ. Where yatha means “like” and idaṃ “this”, with -y- as an internal sandhi connector between two vowels.

3 Likes

3 posts were merged into an existing topic: John Kelly’s Pāḷi Class 2024 (G&K) Class 3

Under Pali basics on Regina and Stephen’s website
https://www.suttaandthecity.com/