SuttaCentral
I know, but what my experience has told me is that most of the times, it’s the laypeople’s wrong views, not good monks’.
And we have a choice: whether to allow these wrong views to control our happiness or not.
I’ve chosen to be happy with my good teachers’ teachings. 
That’s very good, Dheerayupa, if this works for you!
But if we look at the OP of this thread it is about the situation of nuns. They are the ones who are most exposed to these things we have discussed here, again and again they encounter situations where they feel put into a second class position. And even if each individual incident seems not to matter much, if it happens again and again at some point you start to feel that way, whether you deliberately choose or not. Even if 10 times unreasonable—such messages, if constantly applied, do have an impact on the human mind.
That’s what Ayya Vimala describes here. And further:
And this is what she’d like to see:
The thing is that so many nuns disrobe, due to lack of not only material support, but also because their mind just can’t cope with this situation any more, and they don’t find appropriate emotional support either. See Ayya Vimala:
I also know quite a few nuns who disrobed, and others are my friends’ friends. Are these nuns all just volatile, thin-skinned, whinging people?
My humble guess regarding the main reason why monks and nuns disrobe is just the lack of realizing the first stage of enlightenment
Dear Ven @Vimala, Ven @vimalanyani, and @sabbamitta ,
Could you please check my personal message to you? My dhamma friends and I are taking this complaint seriously and wish to do some investigation.
There are times when discussions are fruitful and times when investigations are needed, in my humble opinion.
Regarding people who have ordained and disrobed, there must be some ‘discontent’ that have made them leave the society they live in. I know some of the monks and nuns associated with Bodhinyana who left the robes, and the reasons that could cause the disrobe.
With metta,
Dheerayupa
I’ll reply to you in public since this might be of interest to others, too.
We are not going to give the names of single monks to laypeople. We are happy to discuss with the sangha at Bodhinyana if they are interested.
It is a mistake to think of this problem as a few misbehaving junior monks who should be publicly shamed to make them mend their behavior. It is an all-pervasive problem in the world-wide sangha that cannot be pinned down on a few individuals.
As for “doing some investigation”: I am not sure what that means. The laypeople’s role can be to raise awareness with the monks and discuss instances of discrimination in the sangha. Ayya @Vimala and I have already given many examples on this thread. Laypeople do have a lot of influence on the sangha. But ultimately the change has to come from within.
I fully agree with this—though I’m not a member of the Sangha.
I think this approach of not being specific is doomed to fail. There’s no evidence and no instigators; the end result is a permanent grievance.
The message of this is ‘I will only be satisfied until the world changes according to my wants’ - an impossible task. And the ideology of ‘either you are with us, or against us’ is flawed.
With metta
Respectfully, I feel it is more this adversarial framing that is likely to doom us. The best (but not necessarily good) analogy I can presently think to make, in the hope that my meaning will be drawn out, is to the work of refining speech so it is increasingly aligned with Right Speech.
When I took up this undertaking I didn’t go round wagging my finger at myself saying “you’ve committed all these terrible verbal crimes, look at your wrap sheet! I won’t be satisfied with you until you behave exactly how I want!”. Had I, I would have told myself to get lost using a lot of fruity language I’m very capable of using. Instead, I just took up the invitation the Buddha gave to reflect on modes of speech. Looking I saw, “hmmm, maybe this way I’m used to actually has a few problems”. I voluntarily and gladly set about the incredibly slow process of forming new habits. Accusations, grievance holding and antagonism need not apply; I believe open hearted looking and reflecting is mostly what is required.
I think that might heavily depend on what is defined as the goal to be achieved.
One of the key points that I noted in the earlier posts was that there was a wish to open a community-wide discussion. Dialogue (particularly one that isn’t so much charged with an accusatory tone and ensuing tensions, aggression, defence, guilt, hostile rebuttals and so on), I think may prove a very effective means of stimulating thought and and allowing people to examine the existing culture from different, new perspectives and consider behaviour patterns in themselves and in those around them.
As has been noted in at least one thread or other in recent times, cultural shift is more gradual than instant fixes (of, say, just correcting this or that particular individual), and the bulk of the work I suspect is a critical mass of people (while there are proper distinctions between the monastic and lay spheres, my feeling that it’s probably a mistake to make too sharp a division between the monastic and lay groups in this as everyone has a part to play) willing to see with closely inspecting eyes what has hitherto been taken as just the ‘normal background’, so ordinary that it is unnoticeable. I believe dialogue is likely to be an especially good means of encouraging this ‘fresh seeing’ and opening a reflective space out of which new behaviour can arise.
In the wordly world, regarding changing culture in work places and schools etc, the approach is multi-pronged.
It is easiest to accomplish with a minimum of 20- 25 % of the target group open and supportive of the change. I think this isn’t a problem, at least here in Australia.
In the past when I have conducted this form of active change management, it is always great to have examples of direct experience. Typically, a neutral trainer presents the work shops, with 'guest ’ appearances of the affected group. In this circumstance that would be, a trainer experienced in Gender awareness and equality, with the involvement of a couple Bikkhunnis representative of the ‘lived’ experience.
This particular approach has the benefit, that 1) it sets a level playing field and explicity articulates expectations
2) It provides insight into behaviours that people don’t even know they are doing
3) It is a focus on learning and growth, rather than on punishment
4) The momentum for understanding/compliance is passed to the group as a whole.
This shouldn’t be difficult to set up, withing specific communities. I have no idea whether this kind of thing would work in a monastery environment, but it sure does in work places and government agencies, schools etc.
I vaguely recall reading recently a headline that workplace anti harrassment training was not working as intended. That incidents did not decrease, but fit into the defined gray area. Perhaps because consequences were not enforced.
However i am neither an expert on this topic nor sure of my memory of the article. But I suggest investigation before effort.
There may be an unexpected consequence, as it happens. I am reminded of the brain and skill drains of people moving for where the training and work was. So perhaps the West will become the path of choice for Buddhist women even in the East, if things continue as they are.
Kamma as it is said can be… difficult. ;D
Each case is absolutely unique. The success in one place cannot determine the success in another place. The trick is the skilled assessment before hand and the tailored development of training content and communication methods to address specific situations. This approach is absolutely sound.
In the worst situation, one just enables a much better understanding about certain issues amongst the participants. Indeed, it can even be constructed around a review and satisfaction with daily processes within the Monk and Nun communities and even with the Lay Sangha. It should be a positive process for everyone. This is really just about good management and establishing common goals, objectives and expectations. The greater the unity the less stress and the stronger the ‘team’.
Anyway if anyone is interested in knowing more I’m happy to engage. In my previous life, I spent 20+ years doing this kind of thing on varying scales.
Metta
M
An expert- awesome! Ty.
oops! Talk about unskillful response (me)!!! 
I respect your decision not to tell laypeople about Sangha issues though you are implying on a public forum with most of the audience being laypeople that not only junior monks but senior monks at Bodhinyana are discriminating against nuns.
I guess you already did talk to Ajahn Brahm and senior nuns at Dhammasara or Santi about the discrimination you encountered when you were in Australia.
As an ordinary layperson, I don’t think I have any influence on any monk, let alone a Sangha, but I want to do an investigation to make sure that I have all the facts. I guess I was a Vulcan in my past life?
Live long and prosper. 
Dheerayupa
It would have worked quite wonderfully had there been the wisdom of not mentioning any person or group in particular. Now it’s too late.
It’s never too late to forgive and learn.
Edit: and by learn I mean learn something from the conversation as it happened, etc.
I feel that way about my life sometimes! 
All the same, I come from the ‘start where you are’ school.
Exactly, as sukha says, it’s never too late to forgive and learn. Furthermore, if I were to frame things, I’d put this as unfolding more as an invitation to initiate a discussion (or discussions) rather than the ‘discussion proper’, so to speak.
What has gone before may yet prove splendidly beneficial in the eventual soothing of a complex net of sensitivities.
Yes surprises are always possible! But why speculate and expect? That is not of the nature of Dhamma. let us just watch, dispassionately, as the white rabbit emerges from the hole and explains everything, or as destruction and ruination descend upon the earth, or, as, nothing, happens! 
I agree that it’s too late. Now seeds of doubts or even beliefs that monks at Bodhinyana practice sexual discrimination have already been sown in a few people’s heart.
Anyway, time will tell, and after all, monks who are practicing letting go should learn to deal with allegations.
Peace.
Dheerayupa
I don’t understand these responses. It seems to me that all Vimala did was describe some pretty ordinary, everyday aspects of the current traditions and standard behaviors, and reflect on how hurtful they can be. It wasn’t some kind of tell-all exposé.