Kāmehi = sensual stimuli? (Bhante Sujato)

[frankk]

@sujato

Exactly. When kāma is used in plural form like this, it usually means “sensual stimulation”. Of course there’s a range of contexts, and it’s not always easy to pin down the exact sense. But in jhana it means that there is no sense activity.

Is kāmehi not the same grammatical case in the first jhana formula compared to the usage right before the formula?
Your translation, MN 99

@frankk

And what is rapture that’s apart from sensual stimuli and unskillful qualities? Katamā ca, māṇava, pīti aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi? 17.8It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Idha, māṇava, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi … pe … paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

So why not translate it as “sensual stimuli” in the first jhana formula, if that’s how you understand first jhana? By having kāmehi translated differently right next to each other, I don’t know what to make of it. Does it mean you think one can not be truly secluded from sensual pleasures unless one is in a sensory deprived state?

Bhante, I think you definitely need to have an English glossary of important translation terms you’re using, on SC bundled with your translations. Without seeing how you define those English terms, I wouldn’t know the difference between “immersion” and “absorption”, and I would suspect “sensual stimuli” is different from “sensory stimuli”. That is, my inclination is to believe “sensual stimuli” is related to sensuality and sensual pleasures, rather than just external 5 sense sensory deprivation.

I know you are probably flooded with tasks and the last thing you want to do is engage in a long discussion on V&V (vitakka and vicara) in first jhana, so I’ll hold off for now. But I hope when you have free time in the future, and hopefully before your translations are published in printed book form, you have a chance to review the evidence and objections to V&V in first jhana as “placing the mind and keeping the mind connected”.

Since your SN translations are now up on SC, I noticed in SN 41.8, your translation:
https://suttacentral.net/sn41.8/en/sujato#2.1

B.Bodhi has “thinking and pondering”. So in this sutta, Nigantha, leader of the Jains, doesn’t believe samadhi without V&V is possible. (i.e. 1st jhana is possible, but 2nd jhana and higher not possible).

But in your translation, Nigantha seems to understand V&V with your translation of the special type of V&V that only happens in first jhana “connecting and placing the mind”.

So two big incoherent things that stand out.

1. Why would Nigantha know this specialized definition of V&V, overriding the standard of “thinking and pondering”? Doing a quick google search “jainism jhana”, got no hits. But I would be interested to know how their jhana works in jainism, and what role V&V plays in it.

2. If Nigantha understood the technical Buddhist first jhana V&V as “placing the mind and keeping it connected”, then why would there be any doubt that 2nd, 3rd, 4th jhana are possible? There is a ton of empirical evidence today, hundreds of meditators who can do a Vism. type of “jhana”, and if they can do first jhana, then they can do the rest. If you talk to Vism. jhana teachers, when they validate that someone can do first jhana, then the student usually within a week can do all four jhanas (according to Vism. definition of jhana).

Anyway, I know you have a lot on your plate and please don’t feel obligated to answer right now. But I hope you do review these issues carefully at some point with fresh eyes. Such as, why is second jhana noble silence, and not first jhana? Is “placing the mind and connecting it” really so noisy? Why is it that speech ceases in first jhana? (SN 36.11 ) If the 5 senses are shut off, then why even talk about that possibility, unless it’s an edge condition, a border condition similar to the progressive cessations in the remaining 9 attainments? And if speech ceases in first jhana, and “placing the mind and connecting the mind” are speech fabrications, how does that make sense? And how does this integrate with 7sb (awakening factors), directed and undirected samadhi, and AN 8.63 V&V dropping out in 3 stages? When V&V is understood as “thinking and pondering”, everything is coherent, consistent, and fits together. With V&V having a specialized first jhana meaning, which is never explicitly explained in the EBT AFAIK, then important paradigms don’t fit together seamlessly, like 7sb and 4jhanas.

Even Theravada abhidhamma vibhanga jhana chapter understands V&V as “thinking and pondering” in first jhana. We can see this in Vimt. it retains that meaning, but in Vism., they change things up by saying V&V only as “thinking and pondering” in access concentration, and in appana samadhi takes on the “placing mind and keeping it connected” (to a visual nimitta or kasina).

Bhante, if you’re correct in translating V&V that way in first jhana, it has very disturbing implications. It means Arahant Upatissa got it wrong in Vimt., early Te. Abhidhamma got it wrong in Vibhanga, somehow their grammar books and references were wrong, and 2500 years later you were able to find their mistake and correct it. It really doesn’t give one confidence in the Theravada fidelity of transmission of critically important meditation foundational practices. Either that, or the Buddha really did a lousy job explaining things clearly that future generations can come to such completely different conclusions on this.

Abhdhamma Vibhanga 12, V&V in jhānas

first jhāna V&V, (J2 same def)

♦ 565. “savitakkaṃ savicāran”ti	“Accompanied by initial application, accompanied by sustained application” means:
atthi vitakko, atthi vicāro.	There is initial application; there is sustained application.
♦ tattha katamo vitakko?	Therein what is initial application?
yo takko vitakko saṅkappo	That which is mentation, thinking, thought,
appanā byappanā	fixation, focussing,
cetaso abhiniropanā sammāsaṅkappo —	application of the mind, right thought.
ayaṃ vuccati “vitakko”.	This is called initial application.
♦ tattha katamo vicāro?	Therein what is sustained application?
yo cāro vicāro anuvicāro upavicāro	That which is searching, examining, constant examining,
cittassa anusandhanatā anupekkhanatā —	scrutinizing, constant connection of (and) constant inspection by consciousness.
ayaṃ vuccati vicāro.	This is called sustained application.

crucial part of Te Ab definition above

yo takko vitakko saṅkappo
That which is mentation, thinking, thought,
abhiniropanā sammāsaṅkappo —
application of the mind, right thought.

from right intention (sankappo), we know that “vitakka” would then have to capacity to think thoughts of renunciation, non ill will, no harming.
And if I remember correctly, B. Sujato on another thread explaining “Takko” has a sense of rigorous logical thinking, which would obviously necessitate more than just “placing the mind and keeping it connected.”