KN Ps Paṭisambhidāmagga: what does it say about jhāna, 16 APS, 4sp, 7sb?

That’s a bit precious coming from you, asking that I not rehash old arguments, when you have said elsewhere -

But as long as Ajahn Brahm claims his jhana system is what the Buddha taught in the EBT, every time I come across an EBT passsage that contradicts his claim, I will point it out. I will keep pointing out contradictions and inconsistencies until he modifies his position to be in line with the EBT, or he stops claiming to be EBT compliant in his jhana classification.

This is too important of a topic to leave unspoken. Here’s what’s at stake. Imagine a child growing up with well meaning but overly strict parents. They raise the child in a way, not intentionally, but in a way where the child believes s/he is not smart enough, not skilled enough, doesn’t have the merit to enter a four year university.

The fact is, you’re asking for a licence to rehash without the nuisance of being rebutted.

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I had a look in that sutta and cannot find what you are referring to. WOuld you mind quoting the part where it explains the formless attainments as aspects of the 4th Jhana?

Many thanks!

I think it should be MN140.

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Interesting, thanks. It does sound as if that’s what it means. Is this the only evidence? I also find it possibly significant that it does not mention the 4th jhāna by name, only implying it with the description of equanimity. I would have thought that if it was a clear view in the EBTs that the immaterial attainments are aspects of the 4th jhāna, then it would be found explicitly stated in the EBTs. I would see no reason for it not to be, and only confined to one or more texts in which it is merely implied but not explicitly laid out.

Do you have any idea about the age of MN140 compared to other texts?

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Sorry, I don’t know the answer to either of these questions.

A little book by Nyanponika Mahathera – “Abhidhamma Studies: Buddhist Explorations of Consciousness and Time” – gives some hints on interpreting the structure of the Abhidhamma collection. He suggests that the 1st book (Dhammasaṅganī) outlines the space of mental process (citta-s), while the 7th and last book (Paṭṭhāna) outlines how those processes transform into each other through time. I don’t know how widely accepted that view may be, but it does give a toe-hold on the matter.

Here’s a downloadable copy of that book – seems the same as my hard-copy, tho the subtitle is different and it lacks the appendix:
Abhidhamma Studies – Researches in Buddhist Psychology

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I stumbled across the following this morning by chance, and thought of this thread (aspects of the “eight positions of mastery” in DN 33 were puzzling me, still do, so I went to the Kasina section of the Vimuttimagga hoping for insight, and in another tangent ended up in the section with this quote). It is, at least in the eyes of a relative novice like myself :slight_smile: , a very interesting tidbit of information regarding the jhānas (it may well already be known to most of you guys, but new to me anyway). If I’d found this in the Patisambhidamagga, it really would have been the perfect quote. It’s only from the Vimuttimagga though. Hope that’s still allowed! :wink:

MISCELLANEOUS TEACHINGS
I further elucidate the meaning of the above.
Q. What are the miscellaneous teachings in the field of concentration?
A. Stoppage of sounds; overturning; rising; transcending; access; initial application of thought; feeling; uncertainty. “Stoppage of sounds”: In the first meditation, jhāna, speech is stopped. On entering the fourth meditation, jhāna, the yogin stops breathing. Gradual stoppage of sounds: When the yogin enters into concentration, he hears sounds, but he is not able to speak because the faculty of hearing and that of speech are not united. To a man who enters form concentration, sound is disturbing. Hence the Buddha taught: “To a man who enters meditation, jhāna, sound is a thorn”. “Overturning”: A man, concentrating on the earth kasiṇa develops earth perception through non-earth perception.

I’m using the pdf version of the Vimuttimagga at: http://urbandharma.org/pdf1/Path_of_Freedom_Vimuttimagga.pdf (this quote comes from p.184 of the PDF or p.120 using the original page numbering of the book itself).

It drives home to me again how flimsy is the raw evidence underlying all the various viewpoints on jhāna given the sparsity of source data. The nice thing about the above quote was it provided an interesting perspective to me on how the somewhat puzzling reference to “speech” in SN 36.11 for the first jhāna might work in conjunction with the reference to “sounds” in the Thorns Sutta AN 10.72.

To quote the most relevant bits of SN 36.11

Then, bhikkhu, I have also taught the successive cessation of formations. For one who has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. For one who has attained the second jhana, thought and examination have ceased. For one who has attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. For one who has attained the fourth jhana, in-breathing and out-breathing have ceased.

Then, bhikkhu, I have also taught the successive subsiding of formations. For one who has attained the first jhana speech has subsided…. For one who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have subsided. For a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed, lust has subsided, hatred has subsided, delusion has subsided.

There are, bhikkhu, these six kinds of tranquillization. For one who has attained the first jhana, speech has been tranquillized. For one who has attained the second jhana, thought and examination have been tranquillized. For one who has attained the third jhana, rapture has been tranquillized. For one who has attained the fourth jhana, in-breathing and out-breathing have been tranquillized.

There’s much in common there with AN 10.72, though some interesting differences in content and emphasis. I must admit I had thought that the most natural and likely reading, though not inevitable, in AN 10.72 of sounds being a thorn to the first jhāna was that hearing was simply suppressed and verbal processes shut down in some kind of connected/parallel sense (though I remained non-committal and open-minded on the other senses).

There seems to be, at first glance to me anyway, a rather different viewpoint inherent in the above segment of the Vimuttimagga. Rather a different picture of the role of sound as a thorn is being portrayed; sounds as a thorn seems to be implied as a kind of side effect of the suppression of the speech faculty. So stoppage of hearing, yes, in this interpretation is implied but perhaps more gradually, though presumably still completely by at least the fourth jhana, where breathing has to have stopped in both sutta accounts (is a thorn in AN 10.72) to enter the fourth jhana.

When a single short segment like this in a later commentary can be a important data point, IMO it hammers home to me how little there seems to be to work with in terms of raw material in this topic. Interesting earlyish alternative perspective though.

There’s definitely plenty of food for thought in the Vimuttimagga too, e.g. five step version of the usual four jhanas that links each step to suppression of one of the five hindrances, and takes on vitakka vicāra amongst other things. New and exciting to me but probably old hat to most of you! :slight_smile:

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Hi Sylvester,

I found one of the passages translated:

The suttas describe this joyous ease and pleasure permeating and pervading the entire body in the following terms:

He drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates this very body with the joy and pleasure born of seclusion so that there is no part of his whole body that is not permeated by joy and pleasure born of seclusion.

The Sumaṅgalavilāsinī commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta explains this passage as follows:

“This very body:” this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma]. “He drenches:” he moistens, he extends joy and pleasure everywhere. “Steeps:” to flow all over. “Fills:” like filling a bellows with air. “Permeates:” to touch all over.

“His whole body:” in this monk’s body, with all its parts, in the place where acquired [material] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of skin, flesh, and blood that is not permeated with the pleasure of the first jhāna.

https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20160305041750/http://measurelessmind.ca/anapanassatisamadhi.html

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Geoff Shatz quotes Vimuttimagga, discussing the meaning of “body” in the jhana formula:

Joy and pleasure born of seclusion (vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ)

The discourses differentiate between carnal joy and pleasure (sāmisā pīti and sukha) and non-carnal joy and pleasure (nirāmisā pīti and sukha). SN 36.31 Nirāmisa Sutta tells us that carnal joy and pleasure arise in dependence on the five strands of sensual pleasure, while non-carnal joy arises in the first two jhānas and non-carnal pleasure arises in the first three jhānas.

SN 48.40 Uppaṭipāṭika Sutta states that the pain faculty (dukkhindriya) ceases completely in the first jhāna, the unhappiness faculty (domanassindriya) ceases completely in the second jhāna, the pleasure faculty (sukhindriya) ceases completely in the third jhāna, and the happiness faculty (somanassindriya) ceases completely in the fourth jhāna.

SN 48.37 Dutiyavibhaṅga Sutta informs us that the pleasure and pain faculties are born of body contact (kāyasamphassaja), whereas the happiness and unhappiness faculties are born of mind contact (manosamphassaja).

Taking all of the above passages into consideration we can deduce that the non-carnal joy of the first jhāna is mental pleasure (cetasika sukha, i.e. somanassa) born of mind contact, and the non-carnal pleasure of the first jhāna is bodily pleasure (kāyika sukha) born of body contact.

This reading of these sutta sources accords with Peṭakopadesa 7.72:

The twofold bodily and mental pain does not arise in one steadied in directed thought and evaluation, and the twofold bodily and mental pleasure does arise. The mental pleasure thus produced from directed thought is joy, while the bodily pleasure is bodily feeling.

This understanding is also supported by the Vimuttimagga. The author of the Vimuttimagga was knowledgeable of and quotes from the Uppaṭipāṭika Sutta, the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Vibhaṅga, and the Peṭakopadesa. And when commenting on the bathman simile for the first jhāna (e.g. DN 2, MN 119, etc.) he explains:

Just as the bath-powder when inside and outside saturated with moisture, adheres and does not scatter, so the body of the meditator in the first jhāna is permeated with joy and pleasure from top to bottom, from the skullcap to the feet and from the feet to the skullcap, skin and hair, inside and outside. And he dwells without falling back. Thus he dwells like a Brahma god.

[Q.] Joy (pīti) and pleasure (sukha) are said to be formless phenomena (arūpa-dhamma). How then can they stay permeating the body?

[A.] Name (nāma) depends on form (rūpa). Form depends on name. Therefore, if name has joy, form also has joy. If name has pleasure, form also has pleasure.

Again, form born from joy causes tranquility of body, and when the entire body is tranquilized there is pleasure due to the tranquility of form. Therefore there is no contradiction.

To this we can add a couple of more points. First, due to the presence of directed thought and evaluation in the first jhāna, intermittent occurrences of mental unhappiness can still arise, as indicated in SN 48.40. Thus the singleness of mind of the first jhāna isn’t necessarily as unified as in the higher jhānas. Secondly, when the meditator is steadied in the first jhāna, all of the jhāna factors work together to maintain what DN 9 calls an actual refined recognition of joy and pleasure born of seclusion (vivekajapītisukhasukhumasaccasaññā). Thus, while the singleness of mind of the first jhāna may not be as unified as in the higher jhānas, it is still a very refined samādhi. It takes considerable mental development in order to be able to successfully induce and maintain this level of heightened mind (adhicitta).

https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20160306002025/http://measurelessmind.ca/jhana.html

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That’s very fascinating. What is that text exactly? Is it different from the cmy. referred to by Vism? My impression was that buddhaghosa translated some of the cmy., and that the views contained in those cmy. were compatible with Abhidhamma.

Thanks! Really interesting link. Weaves together a lot of material from quite a range of sources. Must check out the rest of that “measureless mind” site too.

Ven. Buddhaghosa consulted many sources and collected various opinions, so his work isn’t homogenous and isn’t aligned with a single interpretation.

For example, there’s a passage in Visuddhimagga:

4.98. But when pervading (rapturous) happiness arises, the whole body is completely pervaded, like a filled bladder, like a rock cavern invaded by a huge inundation.

4.99. Now this fivefold happiness, when conceived and matured, perfects the twofold tranquillity, that is, bodily and mental tranquillity. When tranquillity is conceived and matured, it perfects the twofold bliss, that is, bodily and mental bliss. When bliss is conceived and matured, it perfects the threefold concentration, that is, momentary concentration, access concentration, and absorption concentration.
Of these, what is intended in this context by happiness is pervading happiness, which is the root of absorption and comes by growth into association with absorption. [145]

Medieval Abhidhamma emerged much later.

Thanks for this.

The Pa.tisambhidaamagga is not dealing specifically with absorption (jhaana), its main topic is wisdom (pa-ynaa).
Like some other contributors to this bloc, I am usually very inspired when I read this text.

It has a few peculiar features not mentioned so far in this blog:
— The text has 419 pages in the edition of the Sixth Buddhist Council. It falls into three parts (vagga) with ten chapters (kathaa) each. But the text structure is very uneven. The first chapter entitled “Talk on Knowledge” (Nyaana-kathaa) covers 30% of the whole book (128 pages), but many later chapters are just a few pages long. It looks as if the first chapter was expanded several times, while some later parts of the book were compiled negligently, just to fill a framework of 3 parts with 10 chapters each.

An impressive list of 73 kinds of knowledge (nyaa.na) is at the beginning of the book, and it is expanded in several intricate patterns to give a very full explanation of these 73 types of knowledge.
None of the other chapters reach this abundant fullness.

In chapter SIX “Talk on Destinies” (gati-kathaa) various types of rebirth are discussed. Here six types of conditioned relations (paccaya) belonging to the doctrine of Pa.t.thaana (7th book of Abhidhamma Pi.taka) are mentioned for each type of rebirth: co-existence (sahajaata), reciprocity (anyam-anya), support (nissaya), association (sampayutta), and dissociation (vippayutta). As far as I am aware, this is the only book in the Tipi.taka (in addition to the “Great Book of Conditioned Relations”, in which this doctrine is mentioned. Could it be an earlier form of this law, before 24 modes of relationship were developed? The Sarvaastivaada Abhidhamma has a shorter form of the Law of Conditioned Relations.

Chapter 24 “Talk on Loving Kindness in the Group of the Connected Yoke” (yuganaddha-vagge mettaa-kathaa) has the fully developed form of meditation on loving kindness, as presently still used in Myanmar.

But chapter 28 “Talk on the Supramundane” has just a list of supramundane states, consisting of the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma-s, and the four types of noble path and fruition (consciouness), and Nibbaana. This is merely followed by two pages of dictionary type explanations of “world” (loka) and “beyond” (uttara): a mini-chapter.

Chapter 26 “Talk on Analytical Knowledge” (Pa.tisambhida-kathaa) starts with 3 pages of Lord Buddha’s first discourse, the Dhamma-cakka-pavattana Sutta (see also Ee Vin I page 9, and SN V page 420) followed by 3 pages of exegesis. The topic is then dveloped in eight further aspects.
But chapter 27 “Talk on the Turning of the Law” (Dhammacakka-kathaa) continues the same topic in three further aspects. … The two sections seems to belong together.

Many chapters begin either with a citation from books in the four early Nikaayas, or with a set of questions on a given topic (as in Visuddhimagga). The Be edition supplies references for some of these citations.

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On kaaya…
PED (The Pali Text Society’s Pali English Dictionary, by T. W. Rhys Davids and W. Stede), has a long entry of “kaaya”. It means “body”, but the basic sense is a collection, a herd, something piled up.

I have also checked Dhammasa.ngaa.nii (1st book of the Abhidhamma Pi.taka) The list of mental factors (cetasika) from the Abhidhammattha-sa.ngaha contains six pairs of mental factors beginning with “kaaya-…” and citta-…" under the mental factors included in the beautiful (sobha.na sadhaara.na cetasika). The six pairs are already mentioned in the canonical text Dhs, in the description of the first wholesome (kusala) conciousness.

Dhs Ee (ed. Edward Müller, 1885), page 9, §1:
"katame dhammaa kusalaa?.. yasmi.m samaye kaamaavacara.m kusala.m citta.m uppanna.m hoti …tasmi.m samaye …
.a) kaaya-passaddhi hoti, citta-passaddhi hoti,
.b) kaaya-lahutaa hoti, citta-lahutaa hoti,
.c) kaaya-mudutaa hoti, citta-mudutaa,
.d) kaaya-kammanyataa hoti, citta-kammanyataa hoti,
.e) kaaya-pagunyataa hoti, citta-pagunyataa hoti,
.f) kaay’-ujukataa hoti, citt’-ujukataa hoti …
anye pi atthi pa.ticca samuppannaa aruupino dhammaa …
ime dhammaa kusalaa.

page 14-16, §40-51: katamaa tasmi.m samaye kaaya-passaddhi hoti?
yaa tasmi.m samaye
vedanaa-kkhandhassa sanya-kkhandhassa sa.nkhaara-kkhandhassa
passaddhi, pa.tipasaddhi, passambhanaa, pa.tipasambhanaa, pa.tipassambhitatta.m …
aya.m tasmi.m samaye kaayapassadhi hoti."

etc. the other factors belonging to the six pairs are also explained.

So it is quite clear that these six pairs are mental factors not material qualities. The expression “kaaya” here refers to mental qualities belonging to a “group” of other mental factors. A material quality cannot be wholesome (kusala), it is always neutral (avyaakata).

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May I suggest a solution?
Pleasure of the 5 senses is called ‘sensory affect’ in neuroscience. ‘Emotional affect’ is something else, more complex, and evolutionarily later. But both are felt in the body. The Buddha seems to have seen sensory affect as a gross thing, and avoided chasing positive sensory affect. But he was totally into positive non-sensory affect, i.e. emotional affect. So may I suggest that’s why the body is still involved there.

I actually found this old thread while searching for any conversation about paṭisaṃvedeti. Haven’t found discussion of it though - so hope it’s ok to post about it here as it seems to be on topic, I posted it in another thread but seems no interest in it there. So here it is:
Also does anyone know if paṭisaṃvedeti is always used with feelings such as emotions, or ever anything specifically cognitive?

In AN 3.54 we have:

“A greedy person, overcome by greed, intends to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They experience mental pain and sadness.

“Ratto kho, brāhmaṇa, rāgena abhibhūto pariyādinnacitto attabyābādhāyapi ceteti, parabyābādhāyapi ceteti, ubhayabyābādhāyapi ceteti, cetasikampi dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti .

That seems obviously affective.

DN 2:

All sentient beings, all living creatures, all beings, all souls lack control, power, and energy. Molded by destiny, circumstance, and nature, they experience pleasure and pain in the six classes of rebirth.

Sabbe sattā sabbe pāṇā sabbe bhūtā sabbe jīvā avasā abalā avīriyā niyatisaṅgatibhāvapariṇatā chasvevābhijātīsu sukhadukkhaṃ paṭisaṃvedenti .

Again pleasure and pain are affective. And more affect from the same sutta:

When they have this entire spectrum of noble ethics, they experience a blameless happiness inside themselves.

So iminā ariyena sīlakkhandhena samannāgato ajjhattaṃ anavajjasukhaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti .
[…]
When they have this noble sense restraint, they experience an unsullied bliss inside themselves.
So iminā ariyena indriyasaṃvarena samannāgato ajjhattaṃ abyāsekasukhaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti.

And again on affect from the same sutta, the typical 3rd jhāna formula:

Furthermore, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’

Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti , yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti, tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

In DN 1 we have the following:

Tatra, bhikkhave, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā pubbantakappikā ca aparantakappikā ca pubbantāparantakappikā ca pubbantāparantānudiṭṭhino pubbantāparantaṃ ārabbha anekavihitāni adhimuttipadāni abhivadanti dvāsaṭṭhiyā vatthūhi, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṃvedissantīti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.

Now, when those ascetics and brahmins theorize about the past and the future on these sixty-two grounds, it is not possible that they should experience these things without contact .

This one I’m less sure of but would be interested if it is pointing out that you can speculate all you want with your thinking, but maybe he’s saying it’s the more direct experience that counts, perhaps that’s why he is referring to affect which is in some sense more ‘real’ than abstract thought - and he emphasises it with ‘ touch ’, phassa .

We are missing where the pleasure is arising from - it’s not a physical pleasure (Kaama sanna) but a mental one, which is felt in the body, which could be explained in terms of somatization, when emotions are felt in the body.

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This seems to conform to neuroscience.

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Also with more experience based disciplines of psychoanalysis, psychology and psychiatry!

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Sorry for such a late response! So then, can we confirm that paṭisaṃvedeti is specifically a term used for only affective experience? @sujato does this analysis conform to your experience? :slight_smile: