Let's talk about Jhana!

Body is used in pali to mean many different types of things. Even breath is a form of body.

MN70, body witness, abides in immaterial liberations.

Same with AN 9.43

Even in English, we use somebody, anybody, everybody. We mean the person there, not just the physical body. Thus, given that 5 senses shut off in Jhanas, there’s only mental stuffs left to be experienced, thus the person (body) means mental body.

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I agree that 5 senses are shutted off but obviously you can still hear and see something with your mental eye and mental ear for example many astral projection or out of body experience mentioned that they still can see and hear the outsides even though at that time they are just orbs or being of light flying above their body and do travelling far away

Furthermore deva means light and they are glowing I think they are just orbs too and they have luminous body of light too

I don’t think calling mind luminous is wrong because it’s mind’s true nature

You said that gods are no longer gods when they see and hear but you need to explain who are they if they are no longer they because gods are no longer gods if they don’t have jhana, jhana is their very nature, they are born with jhana due past kamma

I think you attached jhana to the realms itself not to the dwellers if you are right buddha would experience jhana when he visit the heaven and suffering when he visit the hell the facts that it’s not like that means you should attach jhana to the dwellers not the realms they dwell that means when gods visit human’s realm they don’t experience human’s suffering or a downgrade from their usual jhana pleasures

Awesome, Bhante!

After reading the recommended suttas I understand this as the mind going inside, like Ajahn Brahm would describe it with a simile of lotus petals. Physical body is the coarse petals that open up and fade away in jhana so that more refined petals inside can be seen. But would it be correct to say that even thought senses are disappearing it’s still inside the body in this way?

What’s body here ? If you mean physical I don’t think so but if you mean mental body or mind or orb or light I think it’s possible in fact all astral projection don’t involve body at all let alone jhana

Your question should be “can you see anything without eyes but just mind alone ?” The answer will solve all questions on jhana and whether contact is physical or mental too

Did I said that Brahmas are no longer Brahmas if they are not in Jhana?

Look carefully at the post: Let's talk about Jhana! - #2 by NgXinZhao

Anyway, the below is my speculation.

Just as human beings to be reborn here means our 5 precepts was good in some past life, so that’s the defining characteristics to be reborn in human realm. Does this means that all humans automatically all the time keep all of the 5 precepts perfectly?

I am projecting this basic thing onto the Brahma realms as well. Jhanas are states of mind. So the Brahmas have mind made body, they have mind too. So they could enter into Jhana meditation. They could also hang out of the Jhana meditation, they could be outside of meditative absorption. Jhanas are not equal to the Brahma realm, just as 5 precepts are not equal to human realm.

I don’t think that we should put the Jhana to the person as well. It’s the same, human beings are not automatically 5 precept keepers. Brahma beings need not be always in Jhanas.

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If that is the case the formless gods too can choose to lose their attainment and go to visit the buddha but none of them do so or can do so, what do you think ?

Good points, since we have no real data, I propose we rest this as unable to be resolved.

Wait there, it really proves my point here that gods are binded by their mind state the formless gods can’t see the buddha because their mind state don’t support seeing physical reality while form gods can still see the buddha because their mind state can support seeing physical reality now the mind state of formless gods is formless attainment while the mind state of form god is jhana

This can explain why no gods ever reach arahantship because the pleasure is too much

This speculation of mine also proves that it’s nearly impossible to do vippassana while In jhana otherwise form gods can do vippassana and thus reach arahantship but none of them do so because they are always in jhana Even while hearing buddha’s dhamma or seeing the buddha

This logic is unjustifiable.

Do recall that non returners are only able to be reborn in the Brahma realms.

Also, do update your vocabulary, cause gods can mean the devas as well, use Brahma when referring to them. Brahma includes the form and formless realms.

So non-returners, all of them who got reborn in the Brahma realms, they all attained to the final awakening in those realms as they cannot return to the sensual world of devas and humans.

Brahma is in form realm, do you have any sutta that said otherwise ? You can’t born in 2 realms at once

Furthermore there’s no brahma that can visit the formless realm atleast there’s no record such a thing exists in suttas based on my current limited reading on suttas

But there’s a record that said a fairy can become a brahma’s hosts in sutta

This means that vippassana while in jhana is possible and brahma can’t change its mind state to formless or non jhana state

I think this is a matter more of categorisation.

In the 6 realms of rebirth classification, every realm above human is classified under gods.

Sometimes, when this god category is expounded, there comes to be a distinction of devas and those who are beyond gods, Brahmas. So it’s in this spirit which I am using Brahma as a catch all category for any realms above devas. Just as gods is being used in the 6 realm classification.

As non returners can be reborn in any of the form and formless realms, I think don’t see an issue using Brahma as a catch all term for their rebirth place. To transfer (not visit) from one realm to another, just attain to the appropriate Jhana levels and die while those levels.

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Well I just meant like the outer leaves of the lotus (body) are still a part of the plant, it’s just that deeper and more refined layers of leaves inside that become visible when there’s sunlight and flower opens up. Maybe I didn’t understand this simile correctly yet :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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As a follow-up I think this sutta is pretty interesting, it says:

Sometimes the Realized One submerges his body in his mind and his mind in his body.
-SN51.22

Which seems consistent with Ajahn Brahm’s simile of the lotus.

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