Mano-maya kaya, sanna-vedayita-nirodha and anagamis

I saw there is another thread on the difference between sanna-vedayita-nirodha and nirodha samapatti, but my musings are slightly different and intend to have a discussion on why modern Buddhists subliminally equate sanna-vedayita-nirodha (cessation of feeling and experience) with noble ones (ariya-puggala). I intend this discussion to be light-hearted and reflective but not so watercooler-ish so it has landed here in the Discussion section.

This seems like the subconscious belief among Theravada practitioners, that having the attainment of NS means they are noble.

In that sutta, Ven. Sariputta states those who can enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling are reborn in the host of mind-made gods (not pure abodes automatically right?), then the Buddha agrees to the statement, which means these people are not necessarily Anagamis ?

The questions therefore is there any direct EBT sutta reference for anagami and above only being able to attain sanna-vedayita-nirodha/nirodha samapatti?

Especially with all these lay people claiming arahantship and cessation (the Armstrongs from the TWIM community, the Ingrams too). I used to be thrilled about nirodha. But the thing is, what people say and how they behave are two different things. :smile::rofl: Therefore my incongruence at this point.

The second, natural aspect of this sutta is which are the planes of existence that mano-maya kaya refers to.

From my own digging, it seems there is divergent opinions based on commys (Manomaya-kāya as the form of a being in the intermediate existence - like Gandhabba, for example ).

*Again any EBT references or more authoritative ones would be helpful to clarify what planes of existence manomaya-kaya refers to *

cheers, Bharath

Not just any host:

a certain (aññataraṁ) host

I love how this sutta frames this teaching in a story about how controversial and difficult the topic was even in the Buddha’s day! Definitely a good warning for us to tread lightly on such ground…

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Thank you for your thoughtful response and for highlighting the intriguing nature of the sutta, Ven. Khemarato. It’s indeed true how even in the Buddha’s time, certain teachings were considered controversial and complex.

Your clarification regarding the ‘certain’ host of mind-made body devas is something I overlooked but what is this ‘certain’ :smiley: Yeah, Ven. Udayin in that sutta misunderstood that to be the formless realms where there is no Kaya at all.

The two questions I initially posed have been on my mind as I’ve encountered various interpretations and assertions within the modern Buddhist community (TWIM and Mahasi especially). I believe they are pivotal to understanding the relationship between the attainment of cessation and one’s spiritual progress. These questions are crucial in preventing the followers of these practitioners from misconstruing their attainments as indicative of higher spiritual status.

Forgive my ignorance, I’m not a Buddhist, … just a seeker of knowledge trying to find references that make sense to my experiences and a bit intrigued by this discussion.

Can I ask if this ‘certain’ host has a name? Or do you know of of other references I could check out about this ‘host’ and the manomaya-kaya?

Will save me a lot of time searching to have any info (more than my no info - well from a Buddhist perspective anyway) on a direction to look in.

Thx :blush:

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