Meaning of Atta

Hi @Luis ,

You ask for references for the view that rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana cease to exist after death of an arahant or Tathatgata.

One can approach this from the definition in MN9 about birth. What is birth? Birth is described there, among other descriptions, as the manifestation of the khandha’s. So if there is no more birth, there is no more manifestation of khandha’s.

Another approach is that one needs to see the way rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana arise and pass away.
What is the origin? One welcomes them (rupa…vinnana), delights in them, remains holding to them. What is the path for passing away of rupa…vinnana? One does not welcome, delight and keep holding the khandha’s. As a result clinging will end. With cessation of clinging, cessation of bhava, jati etc. No more manifestation of khandha’s. (SN22.5)

One can also approach this from the view there is not an eternal, non-changing, stable rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana. What is impermanent is suffering and must be abadoned. (SN22.97/98)

You can also approach this from Paticca Samuppada.

I was forgotten that some schools talk about pure khandha’s. But now i remember. Also in tibetan buddhism the khandás are purified and become 5 kinds of wisdom.

The Buddha teaches in many sutta’s that we, as it really is, are not the khandha’s. What are we?

Definitions are tricky. It is mostly in commentarial literature that terms are defined. Even the suttas that provide definitions of dhamma-terms are suspicious in the sense that they seem to come from later teachers who added clarifications to terms that were not well understood anymore.

So mostly we have to go back to the oldest contexts in order to find out what a term means. Buddhist students ignore the fact for example that the Vedic atman had different meanings and connotations - instead they think atman = soul/self.

For example in the pre-Buddhist Taittiriya Upanisad 2 the atman is constructed by the words of the upanisadic texts. Also the firealtar itself is called atman. In Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 1.2 death creates for itself an atman, then divides it, and then creates a second atman for itself. There is no way these examples fit with any kind of our self/soul definition.

So, if it’s not clear from the pre-Buddhist Upanisads what atman is, how sure can we be what the Buddha meant with its negation, anatta? Even if we assume that he changed the meaning to soul/self, this would have to be shown in the texts, and not just assumed based on dictionary entries…

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I am not a scholar so I cannot comment on the history of the word anatta or atta. Actually, I do not worry much about the exact meaning of the word. My concern is that when we talk about something, we should have common understanding of what it is.

If you understand atta as dog, and I understand atta as cat, then we both will talk about different things.

I do not worry much about if anatta is the negation of atta or not. I also do not worry if we have a soul or we do not have a soul, or if it is permanent or not. All of these are irrelevant to me. Therefore, I also do not worry how atta is defined.

If we define atta as dog, then we will need to base our logic with that meaning. If we define atta as cat then we will need to change our logic accordingly when we talk about it.

To me, anatta is a teaching to help us let go of our attachments. That’s my main concern. I do not worry if it is the negation of atta or not. From the teaching of anatta, I can see that there is nothing that I can take as “I, me, my, myself, mine”. They all are impermanent, suffering; therefore, if I relate to them, I will suffer. They do not belong to me, and I cannot control them. If I cling to them, I will suffer.

Anatta is a teaching to develop the wisdom path. This is the path of dispassion, relinquishment and cessation. That is the purpose of anatta at least for me. Is there a permanent self or not? That is not my concern. My concern is that there is nothing that I can keep forever, and they all will bring suffering to me no matter what they are.

In other words, if we can find a common understanding of atta then we can talk about it. If not, then we will talk about different things.

Thanks @freedom . I think you conveyed well the essence of what this is all about. It’s all about dispassion and liberation from suffering. If there is anything we can point to and call it a self, that probably will be a problem because this self will be a source of attachment and thus suffering. Be that a kandha, eternal Dhamma, the unconditioned, a person, etc. Regardless of what atta means, it is really something that causes a lot of worries and preoccupation.

@Gabriel Hi, Gabriel. That is interesting. It seems like the more I approach the subject the less I know about it :sweat_smile: Where did you learn about these pre-buddhist upanishadic references to atta? I think that is pretty useful to get closer to what Buddha meant by atta and anatta.

I think you are up to something helpful with this line of questioning, @Green. Probably there is an experiential dimension of discovering “our true face”, as you said, when we completely stop to identify with anything. But for some people, that way of speaking might lead to “I-making and mine-making” and thus to suffering.

That’s it. I just wanted to show you some appreciation. It’s really nice to have companions who are also seeking to understand the Dhamma and bring it to heart. :person_cartwheeling:

That’s a solid understanding. But there might be in atta/anatta a hint regarding a dispassion that you might not be aware of. Are anatta and not-I-me-my-myself-mine congruent, or does it have another connotation? Words in the dhamma are not random and for us to ‘agree’ on a meaning of atta isn’t worth anything. To get closer to what the Buddha meant might, on the other hand, be relevant for our correct understanding and our practice.

Reading the Upanisads :slight_smile: and other literature around it, but for the so inclined the original texts are quite interesting…

Thanks @Luis, the same here

Yes. MN1 deals with this. Apparantly everything one knows or experiences or tastes can become an object of I and mine-making afterwards, apparantly even Nibbana.

“He perceives Nibbāna as Nibbāna. Having perceived Nibbāna as Nibbāna, he conceives himself as Nibbāna, he conceives himself in Nibbāna, he conceives himself apart from Nibbāna, he conceives Nibbāna to be ‘mine,’ he delights in Nibbāna. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say”. (this is from the translation of Bhikkhu Bodhi).

This seems to imply that the mind can become under the influence of sakkaya ditthi again after tasting Nibbana. It’s start conceiving again and makes again self-views. The hunger for an answer. The first fetter has not come to an end yet and that is apparantly because one does not realy see things as they are but start conceiving again and mistakes conceiving for direct knowledge. This shows the power of sakkaya ditthi.

Yes, it could be. They all are tools for us to reach our goals. However, they are not for grasping. Whatever way we can use to reach our goal, that is good enough. One can use a toyota to reach a city. Another person can use a honda to do so.

The Suttas and their words are for us to free our attachments. They are the tools for us to reach the truth. They are not the truth. Therefore, the Dhamma is simply the raft to help us to reach the goal.

I am not saying that we should not understand what is atta. However, if we want to compare it with something else, we should clarify what do we think what it is, so others can understand what are we talking about. Otherwise, we will misunderstand each other.

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Yes, this cannot be said enough @freedom . Thanks for reminding.

IMO, Atta = who/ what we truly are.

Every sentient being knows that It is! It’s obvious, isn’t it? :wink:
Then of course come the questions. Surely, I am! But what am I? Who am I, truly? How have I come to be? What is the meaning of my existence? What is my place in the world? What indeed is the nature of the world? Etc. Etc.

Then, as now various philosophers and religious teachers had differing opinions on what Atta actually was. Even more varied were the methods expounded to actually get to know Atta- from meditation to ascetic practices.

The Buddha offered a fresh approach to this problem. Basically being “OK, can we agree on what Atta is not? Surely we all agree that Atta cannot have the nature of being Anicca and Dukkha? Well then, let’s work our way through everything in our experience, putting aside all that is Anicca and Dukkha as Anatta. Eventually if we are diligent, we will know it for ourselves.”

Of course, when we actually do that, what we get is the end of suffering. And we realize the flaw in our basic premise - “I am”. Clinging to that idea, craving for existence/ non existence … this was the cause of our Suffering all along.

@faujidoc1 ,

In another topic about poems Bodhisattva shared a poem of Milarepa.

The first verse goes:

“Someone who rests in the act of self-recognition
And is therefore in contract with basic reality
This is a yogi and happy at any time
Someone like this is a yogi and always content”

(just one verse of many)

What does that mean when there would be no self to be recognised?
What are your thoughts or impressions about this verse?

I find it very strange. I think there are buddhist who teach that seeing that all is anicca, dukkha and anatta is the way to enlightment. And it is all there is to see too.

And there seem to be buddhist who teach, all one has to see is the unborn, unchanging reality. That’s the way to enlightment.

SN44.10
“How is it now, Master Gotama, is there a self?”
When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.

“Why is it, venerable sir, that when the Blessed One was questioned by the wanderer Vacchagotta, he did not answer?”

“If, Ānanda, when I was asked by the wanderer Vacchagotta, ‘Is there a self?’ I had answered, ‘There is a self,’ this would have been siding with those ascetics and brahmins who are eternalists. And if, when I was asked by him, ‘Is there no self?’ I had answered, ‘There is no self,’ this would have been siding with those ascetics and brahmins who are annihilationists.

“If, Ānanda, when I was asked by the wanderer Vacchagotta, ‘Is there a self?’ I had answered, ‘There is a self,’ would this have been consistent on my part with the arising of the knowledge that ‘all phenomena are nonself’?”

“No, venerable sir.”

“And if, when I was asked by him, ‘Is there no self?’ I had answered, ‘There is no self,’ the wanderer Vacchagotta, already confused, would have fallen into even greater confusion, thinking, ‘It seems that the self I formerly had does not exist now.’”

AN6.38
“When there is an element of initiating, are initiating beings clearly discerned?”

“Just so, Venerable Sir.”

“So, brahmin, when there is the element of initiating, initiating beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer.

SN22.99
“Suppose, bhikkhus, a dog tied up on a leash was bound to a strong post or pillar: it would just keep on running and revolving around that same post or pillar. So too, the uninstructed worldling … regards form as self … feeling as self … perception as self … volitional formations as self … consciousness as self…. He just keeps running and revolving around form, around feeling, around perception, around volitional formations, around consciousness. As he keeps on running and revolving around them, he is not freed from form, not freed from feeling, not freed from perception, not freed from volitional formations, not freed from consciousness. He is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.

“But the instructed noble disciple … does not regard form as self … nor feeling as self … nor perception as self … nor volitional formations as self … nor consciousness as self…. He no longer keeps running and revolving around form, around feeling, around perception, around volitional formations, around consciousness. As he no longer keeps running and revolving around them, he is freed from form, freed from feeling, freed from perception, freed from volitional formations, freed from consciousness. He is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.”

SA33
”If it’s impermanent, it is suffering. It is a changing dhamma. Would the well-learned noble disciple in the middle way rather view: there is a self, there is other than self, both, or not?” The mendicants explained to the Awakened One, “Not at all, World Honoured One.”
“Mendicants, the well-learned noble disciple regarding these clinging aggregates, contemplate and examine them as they are: not self and not belonging to self. Having contemplated and examined them as they really are, they do not cling to anything that could be clung to in the world. Not clinging to anything that could be clung to they therefore do not hold onto anything. Not holding onto anything they therefore realise for themselves extinguishment.

My understanding is as follows:
All phenomena experienced by a sentient being are volitional constructs based on the fundamental delusion ‘I am’. Becoming conscious of its construct, it clings to its experience in a variety of ways… all of which ultimately lead to Rebirth and Suffering.
The way to break through this endless cycle- which is without discernable beginning - is to investigate the phenomena experienced and realize their Anicca, Dukkha and ultimately Anatta nature. This needs a calm, collected mind, which is where Sila and Samadhi come in.
Having seen through the illusory nature of all phenomena (even the very subtlest experienced in the formless meditations) - having let go of all constructing - the unborn, unchanging ultimately Empty nature of Everything becomes evident.
There never was anything permanent (viz Really Real) all along. It was its own conceiving, resting on the tripod of Namma/Rupa/Conciousness and originating with the volition ‘I am!’ that was the cause of the being’s Suffering.
At that point, the entire question of Is there a Self/ Is there no Self becomes pointless.
If at all there is to be an answer, IMO it could be “Having perceived X, identifying with X, delighting in X, not having understood the true nature of X a Self becomes apparent. Having directly known X, not identifying with X, not delighting in X, having understood its true nature, even the concept of Self can be let go of.”

Just my two bits… we all need to come to our own understanding in the end! Not to mention, actually walking the Path! :grin: :smiley:

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Isn’t it important to base our opinions on the texts? Or, on which texts is this opinion based on? How do you reconcile it with Vedic texts where atman is obviously not what we truly are?

I don’t say you have to take atman research into account, but then at least you would have to posit that you don’t think that Vedic atman and Buddhist atta have anything in common. Which is possible, but it would require a bit more justification than “the Buddha reframed concepts all the time” I think.

As I said, just my opinion.

I haven’t come across any sutta text which says what Atta is. :thinking: On the contrary, there are many texts which say what is Anatta viz what Atta is not. So, :man_shrugging: :man_shrugging: IMO one way to understand the Buddha’s concept of Atta might be to first understand everything he points out as Anatta (MN1 has a comprehensive list of things which should not be identified with and DN1 contrasts the teaching of the Buddha with that of others).

I think one may infer the meaning of Atta from first and second sermons.

From the first sermon, Dukkha was defined as 5 clinging aggregates in brief. I believe the ascetics were bewildered because they thought that the 5 clinging aggregates should somehow be the basis for Atta. How could they be dukkha?

The characteristics of Atta can be drawn from second sermon to be:

  1. eternal, constant
  2. happy state. One can seek refuge, safety and satisfaction in it.
  3. absolute control. One owns it and will be able to control it as one wishes

The Buddha refuted the idea that 5 clinging aggregates could form the basis of Atta with two arguments. The first categorically states that one cannot control them and second argues that they are impermanent, not satisfactory and, thus, not self.

Correct, for example “earth” and “creatures”. Now, who in their right mind would think “Truly, in my essence, in my soul, I am creatures”? or “Truly, in my essence I am earth”? Why would the Buddha refute declarations that are non-sensical to begin with?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the texts don’t say that atta would have to be sukha, only that it can’t be dukkha. Which would leave the option that atta could be neutral.

And who says “I have absolute control over my soul, I control it as I wish”? The concept of soul / essence is incongruent with control. If I am my soul maybe I can control my body, thoughts, etc. But who would think that the superficial ego controls the soul? And what does one “do” with the soul anyway, even if I could control it?

Again, you bring in the conclusion into your understanding. It’s: impermanent - not satisfactory - anatta (not the yet-to-be-established “not self”)

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Setting in Motion the Wheel of the Dhamma

The Discourse on the Non-self charachteristic

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Thanks for sharing your understanding @faujidoc1 .
The above statement i do not understand. An arahant and Boeddha would be free of asmi mana (the conceit I am) but still experience a world ofcourse. Is the vipaka vinnana, the first moment of becoming aware of a smell, sound etc. a volitional construct based on the delusion I am? In other words, is all we perceive a volition construct?

MN85

Prince, before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too thought: ‘Pleasure is not gained through pleasure; pleasure is gained through pain.’

It can be inferred that the bodhisattva had the idea of practicing painful mortification in order to attain the ultimate supreme pleasure from this sutta.

There are many different views of Self. Looking at DN9 Potthapada Sutta already give you a sample of some. If you ask various people now, they would probably postulate a Self differently each, even if they come from the same religion.

What matters more is to understand what Self meant to the five ascetics, how the Buddha refuted them so that we may utilise them in the same manner when we have the same views.

As a basis for existence, the five aggregates can be seen as belonging to Self or are Self.

If one view that they belongs to Self, Buddha refuted it categorically as they cannot be controlled.

First Argument

Mendicants, form is not-self. For if form were self, it wouldn’t lead to affliction. And you could compel form: ‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that!’ But because form is not-self, it leads to affliction. And you can’t compel form: ‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that!’

If they are existence itself, the Buddha asked the ascetics to consider the fact that they are impermanent. It follows naturally that they cannot be satisfactory. Just think of this body and mind that grows old, get sick and dies. Can you develop a sense of security and satisfaction in it? Is it a good candidate befitting for Self? If not, what would be the most skillful mean to go about considering it?

Second Argument

What do you think, mendicants? Is form permanent or impermanent?”

“Impermanent, sir.”

“But if it’s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?”

“Suffering, sir.”

“But if it’s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?”

“No, sir.”

“So you should truly see any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’

In fact the Buddha presented a third way to view the relationship between existence and the five aggregates. When there is craving for the five clinging aggregates, it becomes the fuel for existence. With the cessation of craving, the fuel ceased to be and extinguishment follows as a result.

Ok, the words ‘pleasure’ and ‘pain’ appear here, but no connection to atta whatsoever. This is a comment on Jain practice.

If you made up your mind that atta means ‘self’ then there is little ground for a discussion, isn’t it?