Meddling monastics?

The Watercooler
121

It would not take international vinaya reform - if that is what is in the way then forget about it- - it ain’t gonna happen! This is not like having to climb a mountain or lift up a heavy weight or, a ‘trial in the wilderness’ type of thing - is it?

Lets get ‘real’ about this, all it actually would take is somebody- anybody - just, doing it! They would not even need to move from the spot they presently occupy - and it’s done. However, the mind might throw up all sorts of ‘obstacles’ for various reasons. All that needs to happen is for somebody to recognise the need and do it!

Ajahn Brahm didn’t wait for his friends to catch-up - wake-up! He decided, these sincere aspirants have waited long enough for my support and just went ahead and did it! Then, we all waited for the fall-out - and here we are! The sky did not fall and the sun came up the following day - just like before.

We have a precedent here of what is possible when people recognise the need - bhikkhuni ordination in the ‘Ajahn Brahm tradition’! Someone had to take the time and the trouble to make it happen - just a few good people - that’s all it took. This is completely within the realm of do-ability - if a few committed individuals make it happen - simple!

Please don’t ‘shoot the messenger’ but the 2 issues - discussed above - may be related. If you resolve one - as a community - you may solve the requisites and support issue (at the same time). It may need a bit more reflection on the correlation between support and the lived expression of beneficial principles.

It may be the case, that the degree of monastic support and interest - given to it by the laity - would increase a great deal if, it did not have sexism enshrined in its code of discipline. This would be a clear signal to many lay-people that the monastics are listening to their heart-felt needs and concerns and this invites reciprocity - more warmth and appreciation. Sounds like a win/win situation to me? What is the alternative and how does this help the monastics - as a field of merit for the world - to thrive and grow in relevance?

People express interest in and, support causes that resonate with their own values. The values - precepts - that they have found to be fair and beneficial for one and all. This is as it should be - recognise the problem and do something about it!

We do love the monastic-sangha but some of us are concerned about a few bad-habits that the Sangha needs to give-up. Its a health-issue not a personal one - a healthy and vibrant Buddhist community is something we all wish to contribute to - rejoice in - together.

This is constructive criticism and if it is acted on it may change the face of Buddhism - and its relevance in the ‘worlds’ we now inhabit. A Buddhism that has relevance in this ‘century’ - apparent here and now - inviting one to come and see - to be known by the wise, each for themselves?

122

Why are some people, lay or monastic, so preoccupied about if such-and-such a nun follows the garudhammas (is this not an indication of their own defilements)? Are most monks really out to control nuns? In a way, are the garudhammas not a burden for monks as well? Would completely separate communities of bhikkhus and bhikkhunis be better (wouldn’t that possibly entail negative and new problems)? If some nuns want to keep the garudhammas, should they be forced to abandon them? Why the us vs. them mentality (does it not only make things worse)?

(Rhetorical questions)

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123

No force is being suggested - but the question is why anyone would continue to practice anything that discriminates against women? Especially, if you are a woman and you believe in equal rights - its a no brainer! Your other questions have been answered earlier in the thread. :heart_eyes:

124

It seems reasonable to ask what this kind of a change would actually involve - the basic requirements - not a big song and dance routine with fireworks at the end of the season! All it would take is a few bhikkhunis to stand together and drop the redundant practices. If they felt the need they might mention it to someone or, it might come up in conversation. Let others talk about it, agree or disagree, praise or blame, suggest success or failure, talk about loss or gain, pleasure or painful consequences etc. Then cordially reply, thank you very much friend/friends - lay or ordained - Buddhist or otherwise, and extend to them unconditional loving-kindness. Those who offer unwanted gifts that are not required - the Buddha taught us what to do in that situation - explain to them that they can keep their gift as you have no use for it - beautiful. Problem solved! If the lay community hear about it, those who are lucky enough to see the significance of this simple and straightforward change in behaviour, they will provide support that comes from the heart - why hesitate - do it for those yet to arrive on the scene. :anjal:

125

Every generation is taught by the preceding generations. They learn by observing more than listening.

If what we teach is damning for us, it is damning for them. All, with heads down.

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126

Exactly.

Exactly

The problem is some monks and nuns never learn by observing and listening.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn35.108

127

Observing and listening ‘carefully’ involves a lot more than conformity to an existing norm. An inability to give appropriate and care-full attention to matters of great consequence is a common human failing. This is one of the main problems we face when it comes to the realisation of meaningful change.

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128

We have to become a good student before become a good teacher.
Buddha changed his teachers teaching after fully comprehending what teacher taught him.

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129

Word.

Well said, @Brenna. It is indeed a delicate art.

Having said that, the world does need calm, non-sensationalist, rational, carefully-speaking, whistleblowers like Edward Snowden from time to time.

And ideally, they would actually dwell in a Brahmavihara as they speak. I think each member of this forum should ask themselves wether they dwell in such a divine abode before hitting that “post” (or “reply”) button.

Myself included.

If no Brahmavihara, then quietly admit to yourself that you speak as a hindered person.

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130

Agree.

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131

Agree.
I have sympathy for you that sometimes you have to put up with male chauvinist young monks who think that they are Arahant because they wearing a yellow robe. But this is not an excuse for you to slam the whole monk order.
It is not wise to throw the baby with the bad water.

132

Is this a general remark or a reply to me? I have said nothing of that sort.

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133

Yes this is a general remark.
I know you did not say that but that is what I gathered from seen previous discussions.
Not particularly this thread but discussion about this topic is going for some time.

134

I’m a bhikkhu.

I’ve gone in the alms line behind bhikkhunis.
I’ve bowed down to bhikkhunis.
Paid my honest respects to bhikkhunis. :anjal:

And all at my insistence—it wasn’t that the bhikkhunis asked for it.

And you know, it was great! And it was easy.

Let me say upfront that this is not a community rule, but my personal practice. So if you think these things are inappropriate (and you may) then blame only me. But I think there are good reasons to do these things.

The monks’ patimokkha, the famous 227 or so rules, contains no rule against this. There is only a mention somewhere in the Khandakhas:

“Bowing down, rising up to greet, greeting with hands raised palm-to-palm over the heart, or performing other forms of respect due to superiors are not to be done to a woman. Whoever should do so: an offense of wrong doing.”

The Khandakhas contain hundreds, thousands, of little rules that are not part of the Patimokkha. Belief me that many monks in the world break these kind of rules daily. Have a look at the kind of rules: not to own black footwear, wearing footwear in town, eating garlic, having a drawing of a human on the wall, using certain foot wipers. All are “wrong doings”. (An offence of wrong doing is the least significant offence, it has no real repercussions, does not even need to be confessed. They are largely functional rules, a sort of house rules, etiquettes, encouraging simplicity.)

There are a lot of good ideas in the Khandhakas. Great ideas without which the monastic order would not function well. There are also some that I think are not so relevant. I think not paying respects bhikkhunis is one of them.

(It’s also worth mentioning that scholars seem to agree that large parts of the Khandhakas are not “early”. I’ve not studied this in depth, but it means we may be following rules that were never laid by the Buddha.)

The training rules are said to be established for ten reasons. One is the faith of the lay disciples. Belief me that westerners especially, but many easteners too, are not at all inspired if a junior bhikkhu would have no respect for a senior bhikkhuni. Keeping strictly to the above Khandhaka rule would, I belief, often hurt faith. And it can also hurt the ease of the sanghas, and my individual practice, my own sense of well being—other things the rules are supposed to prevent, according to the ten reasons.

I am not well informed idea about the bhikkhuni rules, don’t even know the infamous garudhammas well. But I would not be surprised if similar reasoning applies there.

And let’s also not forget that many bhikkhus don’t feel comfortable with such rules either—not just bhikkhunis.

Instead of worrying about these matters, I suggest we worry about the big stuff. For a start, most monks in the world use money. We’ve all seen where this can lead. Yet it is accepted by many, even though it is clearly against some of the major patimokkha rules.

Just my two cents (not real cents, of course.)

Let me know what you think. The bhikkhus need feedback from the laity, that’s why I’m posting this.

:penguin:

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135

I have feedback for you and its all-good but, I would also appreciate finding out from you if ‘change’ - actual structural change - would make a positive difference. There appears to be some kind of trepidation around this issue that is unfortunate. It looks like there is real dissatisfaction with the rules - some of them are genuinely problematic and discriminatory. Why do monastics continue to practice in a way that compromises their values. How on earth are people going to wake-up if they live in fear of positive change - and refuse to do anything about it in their daily practice?

You are saying things that would have been valuable to hear about a thousand posts a go! It is disconcerting - given the amount of interest expressed in this thread by monastics - that it has taken this long for someone to share in this way. Thank you! I understand what you are saying about optional forms of etiquette but, it would appear that the issue is more serious. A bhikkhuni in this thread pointed out that there are major-rules in their Vinaya that have discrimination built into them. How would you ‘personally’ feel if these rules were not practiced or, modified in a way that removed the gender-based discrimination? Would you feel unnerved or worried about this or, would you encourage and welcome it? More questions: if there is in anything in the major or minor rules in the bhikkhu-discipline that seem to be ‘on the nose’ ethically - with regard to the treatment of women, would you like to see this unfortunate situation remedied? Perhaps, there are a few Buddhist feminists that could help you identify rules of this nature - if you cannot find any despite your best-efforts? How would you feel about changes of this nature - if it came about - today!

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136

Until I saw and understood that some monks and Buddhist lay respected women seeking to ordain, I could not become a Buddhist… because it is impossible and grotesque that the Sangha was misogynist… Or that Buddha or the Dhamma were, either. Or that a part of the Sangha could die out. It defied logic, morality, compassion. So learning that monks show and feel respect for nuns has been … important for my journey. So… thank you.

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137

Bhant @sujato
I did not have any intention to misrepresent you. I honestly believe that there is a link between this rule to generally applied to all nuns. Considering the fact we all are here thanks to a mother (perhaps this may change when they start producing babies in artificial wombs) the females may have some inbuilt superiority over men.

138

The objective of being a Buddhist is to go beyond all views. An Arahant Bhikkhuni will never question this rule. This is no different to a newly ordained monk has to bow down to a younger monk who is senior to him.

139

Hi,

I’ve deliberately said nothing much about the bhikkhuni rules. One reason is, as I said, I don’t know them well enough to have a decent opinion. The second is that I think it’s up to the bhikkhunis to figure out how they practice their own rules. So when it comes to these kinds of things, I speak for myself.

Is it a good idea to speak for myself in public here, for all to see? In the end a bhikkhu also represents the sangha in whatever he does, both his local sangha and the higher ideal of sangha. So far I’ve only discussed Pali stuff on here…

Well, @Subharo said: let people speak coming from Brahmaviharas. And that made me decide to post. I feel a lot of metta and compassion when it comes to these things, I feel it for fellow monastics, both male and female. That’s were I was coming from, so I reckoned it was alright to say what I said.

Because that’s really the thing for me: it doesn’t feel right to treat women differently. It’s not beneficial for me. And if I read certain things, I get sad, I feel no brahmavihara at all. To me there’s no brahmavihara in the rule about monks not paying respects to bhikkhunis, for example. I can’t possibly imagine the Buddha recommending such a rule in the modern day. Perhaps for 2500 years ago, for some reason. Not now. I feel equally brahmavihara-less when I read the garudhamma that all bhikkhunis, no matter how senior or wise, have to pay respects to all bhikkhus, no matter how junior or foolish.

So that’s where I’m coming from. It’s not a legalistic view, or a scholastic historical view, perhaps not even a practical view… But one I thought was worth sharing, anyway.

In general, I can say, to give at least some sort of answer to your question :blush:, that I think we (bhikkhus and bhikkhunis) have to be careful when deciding to not follow rules. That’s why I have the example of money: you’ve seen the monk with the Rolls Royce, maybe.

The bhikkhunis I know keep the garudhammas and everything, as far as I know. And it seems to work. Since we rarely meet, these rules are not a big thing. The biggest thing is probably that they call every week to ask for the observance date! A formality, really.

But if other bhikkhunis think these rules need a bit of adjusting to modern times, then I’m not going to stop them. I mean, I think we can be rather sure they are coming from the right place; they are not just being bhikkhunis to get a Rolls! They have the ten benefits I mentioned earlier in mind, I’m sure. That’s what matters most.

And I hope they’ll also not stop me from adjusting my own rules to the times, when I want to pay my respects to them!

:penguin:

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140

That is perfectly understandable - best wishes - may you be well and happy and realise complete loving caring freedom. You are in good company with a good heart! :anjal:

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