Ah! Thanks so much. The PED entries show me this. Excellent. Still trying to learn PED search engine.
Hi Beth,
Are you familiar with the trick (when using the online PED) about setting on or off the option “Search Entry Words Only”? See attached screen shot
If you are searching for “agamasi” with this clicked on you won’t find anything, since it’s not an entry word. However, unclick this and you’ll find all the entries where this form appears. Of note for your query are the entries for gacchati and āgacchati.
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kullūpamaṁ (Simile of the Raft) (in MN 22)
Now that I’ve encountered pahātabba in Warder (Lesson 19, Translate into Pali Exercise), I’m curious about its use in this simile. (I’m talking root meaning here, not grammatical.) Am I off base here? Especially when I consider the use of the term patinissaggo in SN 56.13 (third noble truth).
Here is the reference:
Kullūpamaṃ vo, bhikkhave, dhammaṃ desitam, ājānantehi dhammāpi vo pahātabbā pageva adhammā. (MN 22)
If it’s correct that pahātabba is normally used in reference to adhammā, then the Buddha must be making a truly remarkable point beyond Hey, drop the raft.
It would be more like, Hey, clinging to dhamma that got you across is just as useless as clinging to adhamma, which we all know is a really bad idea.
Admittedly, the Buddha’s teaching in the Simile of the Raft is more profound, subtle, and elegant than this; however, the comparison he makes in this concluding sentence of the simile is new to me.
Of course my Am I on Base Here? is not directly related to the Lesson 19 course material and is not a burning question. But it is a fruit of the pāli translation work I’m learning. I take great care not to toss around the Buddha’s sayings with people as if they were all great memes. (Not in this forum but with people I meditate with.)
As you have time and with great thanks.
Question on parsing a sentence
Please provide feedback if my understanding is correct?
Katame ca, bhikkhave, dhammā samaṇakaraṇā?
This sentence has no verb with katame as the subject and dhammā as the subject complement (thus dhammā in nominative case). dhammā is modified by the adjective samaṇakaraṇā (thus nominative case). The verb to be is omitted here as it is not necessary in Pali for this kind of sentence.
Notes:
katame. masc plural nominative of katama. interrogative pron. = what, which (of the many) [ka + tama]
dhamma. masc plural nominative of dhamma. masc. = matter; thing; phenomena [√dhar + ma]
samaṇakaraṇā. masc plural nominative of samaṇakaraṇa. adj. = which make one an ascetic; which should be done by an ascetic [samaṇa + karaṇa]
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Question about the sentence Evañhi vo, bhikkhave, sikkhitabbaṁ. in MN 39
tesaṁ vo, bhikkhave, evaṁsamaññānaṁ sataṁ sataṁ, ‘ye dhammā samaṇakaraṇā ca… amhākañcevāyaṁ pabbajjā avañjhā bhavissati saphalā saudrayā’ti. Evañhi vo, bhikkhave, sikkhitabbaṁ.
Why is this sentence at the end of the paragraph while it is more logical (in an English language sense) to have it before the quotation?
Thanks so much.
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Yes, that’s all correct, Dheerayupa. The verb to be, or what grammarians call the copula is extremely often left out in Pāli.
Here is one of many examples from the Dependent Origination formula (see SN 12.1).
avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā [from the condition of ignorance there are volitional formations]
saṅkhārāpaccayā viññānaṁ [from the condition of volitional formations there is consciousness]
Etc.
The copulas ‘there is’ and ‘there are’ are left out in all the phrases.
If I were to say Dheerayupa is a diligent student in Pāli, it would be:
Dheerayupā appamādo sisso [Note that hoti is left out]
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Thank you so very much. 
I’ve found that parsing helps me understand better.
Looking forward to your class next month. 
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No special logic to it. Pāli is full of surprises!
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I wish SuttaCentral would have a ROFL emoji!
Indeed, Pali has lots of surprises! 
Typing :rofl: yields 
.
Thank you. I meant to say as a ‘reaction’ to the post. 
John’s comment was funny.
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@Dheerayupa, in answer to the question you asked in the new Pāli class thread
vedanā paccayā taṇhā
The meaning is: Because of feeling, there is craving.Question about parsing (my way of understanding a foreign language): both vedanā and taṇhā are nouns. If paccayā is also a noun in the ablative case, then what is the grammar of this sentence?
First of all the vedanā and paccayā are joined together as a compound vedanāpaccayā. And the ending is, in this case, ablative, thus something like “From the feeling-condition”. Then in the sentence taṇhā follows, and this is simply nom sg of the fem -ā noun taṇhā. And there is an implied “there is”. That is, the copula is missing, as is frequent in Pāli.
So literally we have “From the feeling-condition there is craving.”
Or more fluently “With feeling as condition, craving comes to be.”
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Crystal clear!
Thank you!!!
Also, thank you for understanding my approach to a foreign language. Parsing sentences (understanding the syntax) is very crucial for me to understand foreign texts.
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Just for fun: proposal for a new thread for quotes easy to translate
I’m reading Sāriputtattheragāthā, and saw this section
Ajjhattarato samāhitatto,
Eko santusito tamāhu bhikkhuṁ.
Bhante @sujato translates it as:
happy inside, serene, solitary, contented:
that is what they call a mendicant.
I thought the grammar didn’t look too difficult, so I gave it a try:
(One who is) with inner joy, internally composed,
Solitary, (and) contented is what they call a bhikkhu.
I’m thinking that we new learners of Pali could have some fun practicing our knowledge with quotes we like. When we come across some short phrases that we like, we can try to translate it and post it for our teachers @sujato, @johnk, @stephen to provide feedback.
What do you all think?
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AN 1.306:
“Nāhaṁ, bhikkhave, aññaṁ ekadhammampi samanupassāmi yena anuppannā vā akusalā dhammā uppajjanti uppannā vā akusalā dhammā bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya saṁvattanti yathayidaṁ, bhikkhave, micchādiṭṭhi. Micchādiṭṭhikassa, bhikkhave, anuppannā ceva akusalā dhammā uppajjanti uppannā ca akusalā dhammā bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya saṁvattantī”ti.
Is micchādiṭṭhikassa in the genitive case here (vs the dative) … how can it not be.
Still, the English translation must read something like this:
for one who has wrong view…
…which makes it sound like an instrumental. So how do we get away with a genitive case here? It’s not someone’s wrong view. Then again…literally perhaps it is?
To muddy the waters even more, Bhikkhu Sekha’s French translation is:
Chez celui qui a une vue erronée, mendiants… which is like a locative.
@stephen ?
Posting this here because it pulls in things from the Warder course and I don’t want to confuse anyone.
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I suppose literally this compound could be translated as ‘of/for a wrong viewer…’
(I hope that makes it clearer)
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Hi Beth. The -assa ending can be either genitive or dative, as you know. In this instance, I take it as dative “for someone with wrong view (the following things happen)”.
This very sentence I will be talking about in detail in my next lesson. See you then.
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Is this sentence correct?
samādhi paccayo yatha buddhañāṇāya dassanaṃ
= Samadhi is the cause for seeing things as they really are
Thank you.
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Following on Ven. Sobhana’s post in the Kelly Class 5 thread…
For context, in Lesson 2, G&K use AN 3.19 as a teaching aid:
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pubbaṇhasamayaṃ sakkaccaṃ samādhinimittaṃ adhiṭṭhāti, majjhaṇhikasamayaṃ…
This gave rise to a side discussion during Class 6 on the precise meaning of samādhinimitta. We landed, more or less, on objects of concentration.
The more I thought about samādhinimitta, I started delving into the term. How would one practice samādhinimitta all day long? Concentration on what objects? If we’re not talking about the breathing process, then what are we talking about?
I contemplated the practicality of placing my attention on coloured disks (for the umpteenth time). I’ve sat, forced my attention on a contrived coloured circle in my mind, and nothing “happens” except that I’m aware I’m doing it.
I can’t imagine meditating that way. Back to the breath.
I found my way to this essay by Bhikkhu Sona: " THE MYSTERY OF THE BREATH NIMITTA (OR THE CASE OF THE MISSING SIMILE)
In it he writes:
[Mindfulness of in-and-out breathing] is described in a number of suttas belonging to the Pali Canon (e.g., M 118, M 10, D 22). However, the suttas are quite concise, and at times sparse, in their treatment of meditation methods. Hence, one finds post-canonical exegetical works having as their main purpose the comment, explanation, complement, or clarification of texts that may be deemed abstruse or lacking information within the Canon.
He goes on to clarify some things around the use nimitta as it relates to anapanasati. This was very helpful.
Then I found my way to a 2017 (!) essay on Discuss & Discover:
It’s a bit of a slog to get through; it’s a thorough study on the use of the term nimitta in the EBTs. I’ll be reviewing it again.
Which brought me, full-circle, to Bhante Sujato’s translation of AN 3.19:
In the same way, a mendicant who has three qualities is able to acquire more skillful qualities or to increase the skillful qualities they’ve already acquired. What three? It’s when a mendicant carefully applies themselves to a meditation subject as a foundation of immersion in the morning, at midday, and in the afternoon.
OK, now I’ve moved from object to subject. Still not so clear but I’m getting the drift we’re not looking for specific instructions in the EBTs. Guess it’s time to just let it go for now. 
Isn’t studying pāli great?
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A bit off the topic of yours, but just to add my two cents…
Watching a coloured disk is a Kasina method, not a nimitta. There are 10 objects for this kind of practice. Not many meditation teachers in Thailand teach that. Some monks practice them themselves but refused to teach me for an unknown reason!
Anyway, Ajahn Brahm said that a nimitta that one could get when doing Kasina could be very strong, very powerful and meditation learners may not be able to handle that. It’s safer to do the breath or metta.
Real life experiences from two beginners using ‘light’ as their object of meditation.
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the nimitta was like a big bright powerful sun fast approaching the meditator. It was extremely scary. The meditator didn’t want to meditate again.
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the nimitta was a flame surrounding the meditator from behind (like an aura around a person but this was fire). It was shocking and frightening. By the time the meditator realised that it was not hot nor harmful, the fear had already disrupted the meditation and stillness established.
P.S. This is almost like hearsay. Kasina meditation is an easier way to get psychic powers. For instance, people who practice fire Kasina can sit in the snow without getting cold. Earth Kasina can walk 1,000 miles in a couple hours. Water Kasina can get rain to fall. Once one enjoys playing with their psychic powers, they could become more deluded. Another danger of Kasina meditation.
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