MN 49 Mara going up to the Brahma realm?

Discussion
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@freedom not every sutta is explicit with every detail, some of it is implied or explicitly stated in other suttas or nikayas.

It’s why you can’t really cherry pick suttas and instead need a wholistic approach to the nikayas, meaning you can’t use the argument that “this sutta doesn’t say it, therefore it’s not required”, i.e. a form of appeal to ignorance fallacy, “if it doesn’t say it then it’s not true”

People use this argument all the time to say jhanas aren’t required for liberation because not every sutta explicitly states it, but we know very well that it’s the noble eightfold path and not the sevenfold path (when it comes to liberation)

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If this is the case, then when you said jhana is required for liberation and cite some suttas for that, then there will be people who will say that you cherry pick suttas too.

It is the common sense that we are looking for, and if those suttas do not conflict with other suttas then we can use them. If they conflict with other suttas then we cannot use them.

If you can cite any sutta that support the idea that without jhana, there is no liberation then I am happy to look at that.

As I understand, the Buddha teaches liberation by not clinging. Even though jhanas are useful tools for liberation and the Buddha recommends jhanas, but he never say that jhana is the only way to get to liberation. He talks about liberation by wisdom, liberation by concentration (jhanas), liberation by not clinging…

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I see some people think that sammāsamādhi = jhana. Eventhough jhana is a type of sammāsamādhi, but we cannot conclude that sammāsamādhi is jhana. As I understand, sammāsamādhi is broader than that.

If sammāsamādhi is jhana, why the Buddha must use different word?

Note: I am talking about the right concentration (sammāsamādhi) in Noble eight fold path . Not about what you are saying here. Sorry for the confusion.

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Because there’s at least 3 or 4 suttas where the Buddha says you can’t give up fetters without jhana, so to say you can attain liberation without jhana is to contradict those suttas. Liberation by wisdom still requires jhana.

The same thing for Brahma planes, to say you could get there without jhana is to contradict some suttas.

There’s a lot of suttas in the 4 nikayas and 6 EBT books of khuddaka nikaya, and all it takes is 1 to correct a wrongly held belief or interpretation that would seem obvious until one stumbles upon that 1 sutta that changes everything. Most people read the 4 main nikayas, especially MN, but not udana or itivutaka or some other small book, that can contain caveat information.

And some topics will always remain inconclusive, so best not to take this stuff as gospel.

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It is better to quote the suttas so we can take a look. However, even that do you think Brahma needs to give up fetters? Which fetters he needs to give up?

It is good if you can cite those suttas so we can take a look.

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You’re confusing 2 different topics of discussion I never said Brahma needs to give up fetters, I was referring to the liberation requirement.

MN64 is one sutta on destroying fetters

There is a path, Ānanda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without relying on that path, on that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters—this is not possible.

… keyword “this is not possible”

“And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from the acquisitions, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters

We know that non-Ariyans can attain jhanas like the fire ascetics, there’s no doubt that Puthujjanas can attain jhanas. The issue is that they’re still not free from craving due to their wrong views, and thus Mara gains a foothold.

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Sorry for the confusion. Now we are talking about fetters:

In MN64, jhanas are mentioned up to the base of nothingness. It does not include the base of neither perception nor non-perception.

In MN120, When we have faith, morality, learning, generosity, and wisdom, we can reach many realms and formless jhanas, but there is no mention about the first 4 jhanas.

To eliminate the corruptions which are the fetters, the key is in the following statement. Without this, we cannot eliminate the fetters even if we are in Jhanas.

“Whatever exists therein of feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.”

We can see that “This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters” is in this “Whatever exists therein of feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness…” section. This section is the path.

In MN120, with faith, morality, learning, generosity, and wisdom, one can reach many realms up to the base of infinite consciousness. If the being wishes to be there then he will be reborn there.

The last part in MN120

“Again, monks, a monk has faith, morality, learning, generosity, and wisdom. He thinks, ‘From the elimination of the corruptions, may I attain and dwell in the incorruptible mental liberation – liberation by wisdom – having personally realized it here and now with higher knowledge!’ He attains and dwells in the incorruptible mental liberation – liberation by wisdom – having personally realized it here and now with higher knowledge. Monks, this monk is not reborn anywhere.”

This liberation here does not require to be in any jhana level even if one can be in one if one wishes since it can reach formless jhana too. However, for liberation, the monk must eliminate the corruptions which are the fetters. To do so, he will need to see the same thing as in MN64 even if he is not in any jhana. Without doing the path above, one will not be able to eliminate corruptions.

If anyone can do so anywhere Jhana or not, he will cut the fetters. I do not see that one must be in Jhana to do so even if Jhanas are the best way to do so.

Some people can be in Jhana, but get intoxicated with it and get stuck in it instead of eliminating the fetters. However, Jhanas are still the best tools to do so.

So I do not see any problem between MN64 and MN120.

That’s how I understand.

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But surely this would mean that you (assuming you’re not enlightened) and I (as an example) if we ever experience a jhana state and come out of it, that the hindrances will NOT be suppressed unless we’re enlightened or have at least reached stream entry?

This is not my understanding of a jhana. This does not make sense to me because how can one ever see clearly if one is not enlightened in the first place? My understanding of a puthujjana is an ‘ordinary worldling’…technically that’s everyone right? Including us who are practicing to reach enlightenment?

OR perhaps you are meaning puthujjana as in someone who is NOT a Buddhist practioner? which I don’t think is what is meant in the suttas. Maybe you can explain a little? Thank you @Thito :anjal:

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That’s correct, when the hindrances are present you are susceptible to craving and other evil states, so even sotapannas are vulnerable. Even non-returners are, but less so since they’ve cut off the 5 lower fetters and thus 3 of 5 hindrances are permanently eliminated, only restlessness and sloth remain, but a non returner and can still enter jhana “at will”, and be beyond Mara’s reach, whereas an ordinary Brahma is not because he still has the fetters.

Perhaps the fetter of sloth causes the Brahmas to fall out of jhana, or maybe they never fall out of jhana but when they die the hindrances come back and they’re reborn in a lower plane, or maybe Mara can disturb the Brahmas and cause them to fall out of jhana. As long as any fetter is present, Mara can creep in. We see in DN that Mara enters Moggallana’s body but not his mind.

When the 5 hindrances are not present you see more clearly, but if you don’t have Supermundane right view you don’t know what to look for. It’s like having telescope (jhana) but not using it to look at the right direction, but when you combine Supermundane right view and the telescope together then you can clearly see what the Buddha said was subtle and hard to see.

A Puthujjana means someone who does not have Supermundane right view, they don’t even have the map and know where to look to attain liberation, they are also trapped in the net of wrong views, they assume that a being is the 5 aggregates and come up with all sorts of theories based on that presumption.

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I think the origin story (genesis) from the Abrahamic traditions can shed light on MN49. In these traditions, the original state was heaven, satan was an exceptional creator of god, a rebel of some sort, then god created humans, satan got jealous, deceived Adam and Eve into eating from the “tree of immortality”, they descended to earth, then the goal of the spiritual life become returning to the original state or re-unity with god.

Going against the grain would be like: there is no known beginning to ignorance, but there is a deluded god who thought that he knew it all through a high degree of control over the elements. Mara was not subjected to eternal condemnation, but remained in close proximity to god, still subject to his will. Humans might attain higher states in the sensual realm if they behave according to gods demand and will be subjected to punishment (or cleansing) if they disobey. And there is no happy ending as this story repeats itself on and on again and again.

In terms of the 8 knowledges, god or Baka or Maha Brahma seem to have mastered Vipassanā-ñāṇa. To use Plato’s analogy of the cave, leaving the world of shadows to the world of light takes some time for the eyes to be adjusted. Mastering the first Jhana is a prerequisite for mastering the other seven, Āsavakkhaya-ñāṇa being the highest.

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still sloth with non-returners?

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I believe so, sloth is actually not a fetter but I believe it’s just the result of restlessness, and restlessness is a higher fetter and non-returners have only removed the 5 lower fetters.

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I think probably what we need to ask is , if anagami still have restlessness , how agitated is he or what kind of restlessness that he has ?

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Restlessness is listed in the five higher fetters, so an anāgāmi will have it. I believe that the entire story of Venerable Ananda’s night of enlightenment illustrates the higher fetters, especially, various aspects of restlessness and a tinge of conceit leftover due to ignorance. It shows the spiritual restlessness of a person who has almost finished the spiritual journey but not quite. The agitation at the irony of the situation of someone who has heard and remembered every dhamma talk the Buddha gave but is unable to attend the council meeting and contribute. The physical aspect of it exemplified by resorting to walking meditation instead of sitting meditation etc. There might even be a deep seated restlessness due to ignorance-conceit and thoughts like ‘I will not be able to attend’. All of which ends when the restlessness ends and the ignorance ends as he physically lies down.

My speculative take on the story.

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That’s a pretty good take. I think restlessness prevents people from focusing on an object and leads to a lot of papanca-making which then tires the mind out and results in sloth.

“As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of renunciation arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of renunciation has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

  • mn 19

That’s why I think trying to brute force your mind into focusing on the breath is not ideal since it can quickly tire you out, but it may be necessary in the beginning.

Balancing energy is a tough act, MN 128 gives you a bunch of scenarios where one can easily lose their jhana state due to imbalance.

When, having understood that ‘doubt is a defilement of the mind’ and having abandoned doubt, having understood that ‘inattention… sloth-&-drowsiness… panic… excitement… boredom… excess persistence… slack persistence… a perception of diversity… excessive absorption in forms is a defilement of the mind,’ and having abandoned excessive absorption in forms, the thought occurred to me, ‘Those defilements of the mind are abandoned in me.

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This segment is referring to internal assurance or the ‘island that one builds onto oneself’ and that which ‘no flood can overwhelm’.

It is where wisdom, concentration and ethical have blossomed in oneself that one does not feed that which initiates stress.

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So is Mara sort of like the Buddhist version of Satan?

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Hello @jwstone, yes in a way you could say that.

I don’t think I’ll say too much as there are many people here who are more skillful with answering these questions. In a nutshell yes Mara is sort of the Buddhist version of Satan.

But there is more to Mara. You’ll probably come across some stories about Mara and ‘his daughters’ who were trying (in vain) to prevent the Buddha-to-be from reaching enlightment.

However these stories came later, after the passing of the Buddha.

I understand the deeper meaning of ‘Mara’ to be the psychological (unwholesome) states that prevent one from inclining the mind towards the wholesome.

For example, perhaps I’ll say to myself, “oh yeah better get an early night tonight.” And then a few minutes later, I might get a seemingly random thought to go on youtube and lookup a movie clip from the 90s that I was fond of. And so I do, next thing I know, I’ve just wasted 30 mins to a whole hour just wathching random videos on youtube when I could’ve been sleeping and getting an early night like I originally intended.

So the ‘Mara’ in this example would’ve been the (not so) ‘random thought’ to lookup that movie clip on youtube. Ideally the wisdom faculty would’ve kicked in the minute that thought appeared "Ah I know you Mara!’ and you recognise ‘Mara’ straight away :grin:

I hope that example makes sense to you :anjal:

FYI, there’s a whole chapter on Mara from the Linked discourses here

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Your question is very interesting. If we pay attention, the Suttas only tell of Buddha going to the first level of the Brahma realm and the Sudhavasa Brahma realm (the realm of anagamis). In the first level of the Brahma realm it seems that the Brahma beings there are not always in a state of jhana meditation, perhaps this is because the first level of the Brahma realm is adjacent to the sense realm. Likewise this first-level Brahma being has an interest in observing life in the sense realms. Because of this, maybe beings at the first level of the Brahma realm can still be disturbed by mara.

But even though anagami beings appear to be talking and not in jhana meditation, they are already free from sensual/physical desires and so cannot be disturbed by mara.

As for the other jhana realm beings (second, third, fourth level jhanas and in the immaterial jhanas), I have never read stories of the Buddha talking to beings in those realms. It is possible that beings in those realms are always in a meditative jhana state. Because of that also in the Suttas it is stated that concentration is firmly formed actually starting at the second level of jhana, not the first level of jhana.

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Here, Ven Anuraddha conversed with higher jhana plane beings on MN 127.

…For a long time I have previously lived together with those deities, conversed, and engaged in discussion.”

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