MN25 Translation's meaning questions

Q & A
1

I do not know Pali, and my English is not very well so I may misunderstand the translations; therefore, I need help here.

In MN25, We have this Pali’s section (At the fourth herd of deer)

Yannūna mayaṁ amuṁ nivāpaṁ nivuttaṁ mārassa amūni ca lokāmisāni upanissāya āsayaṁ kappeyyāma, tatrāsayaṁ kappetvā amuṁ nivāpaṁ nivuttaṁ mārassa amūni ca lokāmisāni ananupakhajja amucchitā bhojanāni bhuñjissāma, ananupakhajja amucchitā bhojanāni bhuñjamānā na madaṁ āpajjissāma, amattā samānā na pamādaṁ āpajjissāma, appamattā samānā na yathākāmakaraṇīyā bhavissāma mārassa amusmiṁ nivāpe amusmiñca lokāmise’ti.

Ven. Sujato translated it as: (Sujato)

Why don’t we set up our lair close by the place where Māra has cast the bait and those material delights of the world? Then we can intrude on it and enjoy eating without being reckless. We won’t become indulgent, then we won’t become negligent, and then we won’t be vulnerable to Māra on account of that bait and those material delights of the world.’

I.B. Horner translated it as: (Horner)

Suppose that we should make a lair near those crops sown by the sower, so that we can eat fodder not encroaching entranced on those crops sown by the sower; and then, having made the lair and not encroaching entranced on the crops sown by the sower, we will not get elated; not being elated we will not get careless; not being careless, we will not become those to be done to as the sower wills amid that crop.”

In Ven. Sujato’s translation we have: Then we can intrude on it and enjoy eating…
In I.B. Horner’s translation we have: so that we can eat fodder not encroaching entranced on those crops sown by the sower…

Questions:

  1. The deers can intrude and enjoy eating or should not intrude and should not enjoy (as I understand from I.B. Horner: “not encroaching entranced”)?
  2. What does the deers eat? The bait as in Ven. Sujato’s translation? Or eat fodder and avoid the crops as in In I.B. Horner’s translation?
  3. The bait, the crops, the fodder? Are they the same meaning in this context?

I may misunderstand the translations. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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2

Hey,

This seems to the third herd of deer.

  1. “not encroaching entranced” seems to refer to the “eating without being reckless” part.

  2. It seems to be the bait, yes. Comparing with the simile where mendicants have to eat food which has sensual pleasure attached to it, it is eating the bait - but not becoming careless while doing it.

  3. Yea, seems like it to me :smiley:

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3

Yes, exactly. Horner’s rendering is correct, but a little unclear. The negative applies to “reckless”/“entranced”, which in the Pali is mucchita, “deluded, confused”.

The word here is nivāpa, which in this case is some kind of “fodder” that is being used as “bait”. So it could be translated either way, I translate as “bait” to make the sense clear.

Horner’s “sower” here is nevāpika, the “layer of the nivāpa”, so it can be translated as the “sower” of the seed or the “trapper” who lays the bait. Since the point of the simile is that Māra traps you, I chose the latter.

In your examples above, I think you’ve confused the sections a little. The portion in Horner’s translation that corresponds with mine would be:

Suppose that we should make a lair near that crop sown by Māra—material things of the world; having made a lair there, we will eat fodder not encroaching entranced on that crop sown by Māra—material things of the world; eating fodder not encroaching entranced, we will not get elated; not being elated, we will not get careless; not being careless, we will not become those to be done to by Māra as he wills amid that crop—material things of the world.

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4

Thanks for your detail explanation, Bhante. I did not understand what “not encroaching entranced” means. Using Microsoft and Google translation to my language, it sounds like “not intrude”! That was the confusion. @mavanyrecords also clarified the meaning of the words. Thanks.

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