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Nibbana, which is unconditioned and unchanging

pali
nibbāna
Tags: #<Tag:0x00007f788a5c1ed0> #<Tag:0x00007f788a5c1d90>

#1

Buddho ca me kañcanasannibhattaco,
Adesayi samudayadukkhaniccataṃ;
Asaṅkhataṃ dukkhanirodhasassataṃ,
Maggaṃ adesayi yato vijānisaṃ.
(Nāgavimānavatthu)

Buddho ca me isinisabho vināyako,
Adesayī samudayadukkhaniccataṃ;
Asaṅkhataṃ dukkhanirodhasassataṃ,
Maggañcimaṃ akuṭilamañjasaṃ sivaṃ.

The Supreme Buddha is a great teacher. He is very skilled at training gods and humans. My great teacher, the Supreme Buddha, taught me the Four Noble Truths. He taught that suffering and the cause of suffering are impermanent. He taught me the end of suffering, Nibbana, which is unconditioned and unchanging. And he taught me the Noble Eightfold Path which is a straight and excellent way leading to the end of suffering (Sirimāvimānavatthu).

Any explaination to the word “dukkhanirodhasassataṃ”?
Translation of entire phrase “Asaṅkhataṃ dukkhanirodhasassataṃ”?


#2

Bhante Sujato has translated “dukkhanirodhassa” as “cessation of suffering”. And “sasata” is “eternal”. So I’m guessing that is the “eternal and final cessation of suffering”.

Here are some search results from scv-bilara:


------------------------------- sn56.21 -------------------------------
scid: sn56.21:2.4
pli: dukkhanirodhassa ariyasaccassa …pe…
en: the cessation of suffering,

This is listed as “unconditioned, unprepared” in the SuttaCentral web page popup. So together we would have approximately “the unconditioned, unprepared, eternal and final cessation of suffering”.


#3

My exact problem here is nibbāna being eternal (sassata).


#4

It is eternal in a special sense, as in “change is eternal”. Not eternal as in immortal.


#5

Agree, in this way it is eternal.
dukkhanirodha vasena sassataṃ

Eternal [quote=“karl_lew, post:2, topic:14225”]
“eternal and final cessation of suffering”
[/quote]


#6

So I assume in the sense of “dukkha will never return”?


#7

Return to whom. Once attained nibbāna, so called satta (being) is nullified.


#8

Here is a guess:
I wonder if the Buddha said “all conditional phenomena” is changeable and impermanent.
I.e. all phenomena that is dependent on conditions is impermanent.
Perhaps the “unconditioned” is better translated as “unconditional” - i.e. not dependent on conditions.
Maybe this clause does not apply to unconditional phenomena, i.e. Nibbana.
Perhaps what is not dependent on conditions is unchanging and eternal?
But the attainment of that unconditional state is conditional and dependent on conditions: namely, the eightfold path.

What do you all think of this? I have wondered this for a while - I would prefer not to hold onto wrong view with regard to this issue lol.


#9

:white_check_mark:

mn44: “The noble eightfold path is conditioned.”