The Vinaya texts do not distinguish between sex and gender - gender is a categorization that didn’t exist at the time. Certainly individuals experienced their identities in varying ways, but as is also the case in Brahmanism and Jainism, they didn’t have the language to explain this.
The Vinaya also doesn’t have the language for transgenderism and thus we don’t really have any guidance on this issue. I would argue that transgender individuals should join the community based on their gender identity or whichever community they feel most comfortable in. There are many people who would disagree on this point however, and I even know of a monastery that would have transgender individuals ‘un-transition’ in order to join their community.
I wrote my Master’s thesis on this topic and unfortunately came to the opposite conclusion.
However, I think more than anything the sangha sets the precedent for inclusion and it is up to monastic communities to decide to accept trans and non-binary people into their ranks. And indeed I hope many communities will choose to do so!
I have read through this entire thread looking for guidance, but didn’t see what I wanted to learn. I decided to make an account specifically to write this comment. I beg you to please read and advise me!
I am a transgender man, born with female parts and transitioned to male. I appear completely traditionally male in all ways now thanks to medication and surgery, more for ease of life in a society that expects to see certain things in the men’s locker room than for a hatred of self/body. I began transition before I learned about Buddhism.
I am extremely dedicated to the dhamma now. Through daily practice I have experienced great change in my actions and my life. Now, I am strongly drawn to monastic life; this takes precedence over every other motivation in my life. However, I have no idea where to start looking for a sangha that may be interested in eventually accepting me as a Bhikku.
In fact, I had almost given up; I was planning to embrace the lay life as a devout lay follower (and ordain in the next life) when I stumbled across this thread. I feel great hope in my heart, now I have learned that there may be teachers who are willing to ordain someone who has a body like mine! I am willing to dedicate myself entirely to a practice that has freed me so profoundly already, even if it means giving up all that brings me pleasure, whether that be a identity in gender or my other worldly attachments.
What should I do to find a sangha that may accept me as a monk? I don’t exactly have room to be picky, but I typically follow teachers of Theravada Buddhism; I place my trust in these teachers especially.
Thank you especially to anyone who is kind enough to read. Peace be to you all.
First I want to give you a for your courage and effort I know how difficult it is
I have read a sutta that supports ftm transformation this female lay follower died and born as a male god
The problem is we don’t know yet the meaning of paṇḍaka and hermaphrodite because buddha completely ban those and even equalize them to a mother murderer
So there’s still ambiguity here
So keep up with your meditation practice because whether you are a sis or a bro it doesn’t matter whether you like man or women it doesn’t matter as long as you cling to the 5 aggregates you will suffer whoever you are whatever your identity is
May I ask where you’re located? My first thought is Empty Cloud Monastery in New York City, but there are suitable places in other countries too if America is far for you.
Hi! You might like to contact Ven @Akaliko who runs Rainbodhi.org . Since I’ve tagged him, he might respond here or if you like, you might send him a PM (by clicking on his name in this message.)
I do want to mention that while I certainly support LGBT+ people, I do not describe myself as such. While technically I am transgender, that is only because this body & brain is that of a man (who just happens to have required medical intervention in order to appear as such.) Many trans people feel this way, but our voices are quiet. I am not looking for a community that will emphasize this facet of my temporary form. Actually, I could even accept the discomfort of going back to acting as if I were a woman if necessary, although I imagine my facial hair and permanent baritone would present challenges with the nuns, LOL. Correct gender presentation is nowhere near comparable to the opportunity to truly address ones suffering! No, my mind ought to be focused on the dhamma, on the present, on my practice.
I am specifically seeking the simple life of a monastic. Meditation, renunciation/rules, studying, alms, work/duties, and whatever else my teacher would ask of me. I am becoming increasingly single-minded in my motivation to follow the dhamma, and it simultaneously becomes increasingly difficult to do this while living a lay life. I hope that the small, obstructive fact that I am trans does not prevent me from fully dedicating myself during this lifetime.
Oh, and I am located in Washington in the US (Northwest coast.) I would be perfectly happy to change countries.
Thank you again for taking the time to read and share your insights. Your comments are all greatly appreciated and respected! Wishing you all peace.
I think the biggest consideration, aside from finding a monastery accepting of trans-persons, is whether you’ll need to keep taking exogenous testosterone (or any other medicine related to your transition). A mendicant is ideally supposed to be able to put up with nothing but cow urine for medicine. And monastics are supposed to give up all their money. I imagine it’s unlikely that you’d find a monastery that would ask lay people to provide for exogenous-T as a medicine. That being said, a monastic is always allowed to ask an immediate family member for requisites, so if you could set it up such that your family would supply such things then you might be good to go.
I am really sorry to hear your situation. In fact, you are not alone. There are thousands if not millions out there going through similar conditions.
One bright spot that I see in your situation is that you have found the truth - unsatisfactoriness, Dukkha - in existence. This is the first noble truth and understanding the other three truths is not difficult when one understands the first truth. From what you have said I am sure you have done that and you are on the path already.
My question to you is, is ordination a must? Cannot someone like you follow the path and become at least a stream winner in this life itself without ordaining? When someone understands the four noble truths, IMO the path is the only rationale alternative and it can be followed with or without ordaining.
These are just my thoughts for you to consider.
With Metta
In reality, however, this is not the case. Any community that doesn’t happily provide the requisites of proper medicine is likely one that you don’t want to be a part of any way.
It’s true that a community may decide that someone’s per-existing medical expenses are too great to bear. Or that a person’s age at the time of potential ordination places them too close to the time that they would be needing lots of community resources (human as well as money) However, since communities are generally made up of people who understand human problems, someone’s needs for medical treatment are not an automatic exclusion. There are few people with zero medical conditions, even among the young.
With ongoing medicine the monastery will often pay out of general funds, so this isn’t necessarily an issue.
Another alternative would be to ordain in a country with national health care/pharmacare. Problem solved.
My impression is that which group you ordain under heavily depends on your sexual orientation. If you’re attracted to women, it’s not a good idea to ordain in the nun’s place, and vice versa.
Anyway, there’s also the Vinaya guide that says a monk who had undergone spontaneous sex change to become a woman, is considered a nun automatically and vice versa. So in that sense, it seems that sexual orientation doesn’t matter, cause celibacy is expected. However, that said, the monastery I am in now, have men being half naked a lot of the time, cause my teacher doesn’t believe in the angsa is in the spirit of the rule of one set of 3 robes. So you’ll have to know your own personality.
Anyway, Ajahn Brahm is one of the very open and good teacher to ordain under, he’s very liberal about LGBT+ stuffs. Downside is that the waiting list is super long for foreigners, basically no chance to get in. You’ll have to somehow get a Permanent resident in Australia, then your ordination list would switch to the local list and within a year or 2 or very fast, you might get in already.
Other places which are very open I am not familiar with.
@sujato@Akaliko do you have any recommendations for how I should proceed based on my earlier comments?
I would accept life as a lay person if I must, but I think if there is a chance I could become ordained, I should pursue this. I intuitively feel this is the path I must follow (though the extent to which I can trust “intuition” I do not know.)
I will need testosterone for the rest of my life, but this medication is not terribly expensive. In the US it is about $30/month, if I I ject it myself (which I know how to do.) However if I wanted to, it would not kill me to stop. There would be negative side effects (fatigue, muscle wasting and much later, osteoporosis and risk for breaking bones easily) but personally, this is a risk I’m willing to take. A friend of family member may be willing to provide this to me anyway.
That aside, you have given me some great suggestions to consider. Thank you kindly.
@Livingwithintent go for it! You’re a man in your heart and body and in law. No-one has a right to know your gender history. And when it comes to that question at Bhikkhu ordination you know in your heart that it’s true.
There’s many people in the Sangha who require ongoing medication, no-one has a right to know what medications others are taking.
The tricky thing for everyone who wants to ordain is to find the right community and that is not easy. I’d recommend spending time in as many monasteries as possible to get to know the community and their culture and to start to have conversations about ordination. Let them get to know you and also see how you feel about them, and most importantly discover for yourself if the monastic path is for you. It’s important to get past the fantasy into reality - so do some long retreats or stay as a long term guest.
It’s probably useful to ordain in a country where you don’t have to worry about visas or language and cultural barriers - Empty Cloud monastery in New Jersey might be a good start.
Sorry to keep reviving this thread! I’ve been exploring monasteries in the US and have now spent 4 months living in one as well; here, I’ve been told I could ordain as a nun elsewhere if I de-transitioned, but this would not be a healthy choice. I’d like to pursue this path. I am thinking that at this time, Empty Cloud isn’t the right community for me. Do you know of any others? I am patient; it is worth it even if the waiting list is long or if I need to learn another language. There doesn’t seem to be a master list of the (probably few) choices!
With respect.
There is a list on the Rainbodhi website here of LGBTQIA+ friendly monasteries. I’m sure there are others outside this list. Maybe check out the Rainbodhi youtube channel and speakers from the International Queer Buddhist Conference as well.
Best of luck
I know your preference was a Theravada monastery, but in the Zen tradition there’s Zen Mountain Monastery. https://zmm.org/
I went on retreats there back in the 90’s and always found it a good place. And when I just checked online they have an LGBTQ+ meditation group, so hopefully trans-affirming on the monastic side as well.
I don’t have a lot of details, and might not be a fit for you given it is in the Zen tradition. But a good monastery in the US if you wanted to check them out.
Here are the reasons the Buddha gave for making the rules of the Vinaya:
5.11.32 for the well-being of the Sangha, for the comfort of the Sangha, for the restraint of bad people, for the ease of good monks, for the restraint of corruptions relating to the present life, for the restraint of corruptions relating to future lives, to give rise to confidence in those without it, to increase the confidence of those who have it, for the longevity of the true Teaching, and for supporting the training. saṅghasuṭṭhutāya, saṅghaphāsutāya, dummaṅkūnaṁ puggalānaṁ niggahāya, pesalānaṁ bhikkhūnaṁ phāsuvihārāya, diṭṭhadhammikānaṁ āsavānaṁ saṁvarāya, samparāyikānaṁ āsavānaṁ paṭighātāya, appasannānaṁ pasādāya, pasannānaṁ bhiyyobhāvāya, saddhammaṭṭhitiyā, vinayānuggahāya.
for your courage and effort I know how difficult it is
