On early Buddhism

I was close to posting the following in this thread:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/what-is-wrong-with-a-positivist-interpretation-of-nibbana/

But will post it here instead.

Among the five higher fetters are lust for the luminous form realms and lust for the formless realms - these states are so exceptionally pleasant that it is quite natural anyone would like to stay in them and not search any further.

Out of countless of billions of beings in all planes of existence only the extremely rare being called a Buddha shows the way to the highest state beyond the formless, Nibbāna.

Billions of humans already know what it is like being unconscious, either from dreamless sleep or drinking too much alcohol etc. Yet Nibbāna is a very rare state that is not only very hard to attain, it can’t even be explained or compared to anything.

Once again:

Nibbāna is atakkāvacara, “beyond logical reasoning”. It is difficult to comprehend with logic or reason, since it is not a concrete “thing.” It cannot be explained with logic or reason to someone who has not attained it by themselves.

So that being said it is really impossible that Nibbāna equals a unconscious state of annihilation, since pretty much anyone already knows what it is like being unconscious…

Remember that it is only due to extreme suffering, sorrow and pain that Vibhava-taṇhā arises. There is no pain, sorrow or suffering in these higher realms, it is only dukkha (unsatisfactory) because of the Buddha’s incredible insight that even these blissful planes of existence will come to an end.

If I attain one of the luminous form or formless states I say, that it was indeed me as an individual and real person who is really here who attained these states.

Therefore the insight regarding the three characteristics Anicca, Dukkha & Anatta only comes thanks to a Buddha attaining Nibbāna and really shows that Nibbāna is NOT a unconscious state of complete annihilation! :slight_smile:

Because how can these insights, that only a Buddha attaining Nibbāna has, like impermanence, unsatisfactoriess & not-self come about from being unconscious?

And from this ”unconscious state” somehow apply these characteristics otherwise impossible to see; to the extremely blissful luminous form or formless planes of existence?

Anyone who has attained these states would prefer these over a Nibbāna that equals annihilation and 100% unconscioussnes. Otherwise two of the higher fetters would not be lust for the luminous form realms and lust for the formless realms.

Please be so kind and show me any sutta where the Buddha explains that specifically Vibhava-taṇhā is actually a good thing…Seeing the repulsiveness of food, the body or even the world at large is not Vibhava-taṇhā.

Seeing the repulsive in the pleasant (luminous form/formless) is not Vibhava-taṇhā.
:pray:

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