thanks for your reply again @Vaddha , this is fun! so much to address…
Just to be clear, neither am I! I am trying to teach myself Pali (and a bit of classical Chinese) and trying to figure out “Philology” as well, but I am not an academic and I am not even a full time student.
That said, using Digital Pali Reader and Suttacentral as my basic tools, I have been able, over the last year, to at least convince myself that word frequencies matter in the corpus, at least in as much as they indicate the “solidity” of the ground people are standing on. Basically, my uneducated opinion is that if it is repeated more that a dozen times, and occurs in all 4 principle Nikayas, then it is quite likely to be early. If it is rare, or confined to just one NIkaya, and especially if the language becomes more common in the NIdessa, Vibhanga, Visudhimagga etc then it is at least possibly late, and if not late then at least not solid ground for doctrinal claims.
When I use “late” btw, I always mean “late in the pre-sectarian period”. This is the only period of Buddhism I am interested in (not because the rest isn’t interesting but because between Pali, Chinese, Philology, Philosophy etc I have enough to be going on with for several lifetimes without worrying about the Abbhidhamma or the commentaries, let alone the Mahayana sutras, except incidentally as they bear on my concerns) and so I tend to use the term a bit differently to some others I guess.
Anyway, in terms of further thoughts, the main one I have is that just as MN144 and SN35.87 are variations of the same root text, so too SN22.87 and SN4.23 clearly derive from the same source:
At one time the Buddha was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground.
Ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā rājagahe viharati veḷuvane kalandakanivāpe.
SN22.87
At one time the Buddha was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground.
ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā rājagahe viharati veḷuvane kalandakanivāpe.
SN4.23
Then the Buddha said to the mendicants,
Atha kho bhagavā bhikkhū āmantesi:“Come, mendicants, let’s go to the Black Rock on the slopes of Isigili,
*“āyāma, bhikkhave, yena isigilipassaṁ kāḷasilā tenupasaṅkamissāma;where Vakkali, the gentleman, slit his wrists.”
yattha vakkalinā kulaputtena satthamāharitan”ti.“Yes, sir,” they replied.
“Evaṁ, bhante”ti kho te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṁ.Then the Buddha together with several mendicants went to the Black Rock on the slopes of Isigili.
Atha kho bhagavā sambahulehi bhikkhūhi saddhiṁ yena isigilipassaṁ kāḷasilā tenupasaṅkami.The Buddha saw Vakkali off in the distance lying on his cot, having cast off the aggregates.
Addasā kho bhagavā āyasmantaṁ vakkaliṁ dūratova mañcake vivattakkhandhaṁ semānaṁ.
SN22.87
Then the Buddha said to the mendicants,
Atha kho bhagavā bhikkhū āmantesi:“Come, mendicants, let’s go to the Black Rock on the slopes of Isigili where Godhika, who came from a good family, slit his wrists.”
“āyāma, bhikkhave, yena isigilipassaṁ kāḷasilā tenupasaṅkamissāma yattha godhikena kulaputtena satthaṁ āharitan”ti.“Yes, sir,” they replied.
“Evaṁ, bhante”ti kho te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṁ.Then the Buddha together with several mendicants went to the Black Rock on the slopes of Isigili.
Atha kho bhagavā sambahulehi bhikkhūhi saddhiṁ yena isigilipassaṁ kāḷasilā tenupasaṅkami.The Buddha saw Godhika off in the distance lying on his cot, having cast off the aggregates.
Addasā kho bhagavā āyasmantaṁ godhikaṁ dūratova mañcake vivattakkhandhaṁ semānaṁ.
SN4.23
Now at that time a cloud of black smoke was moving east, west, north, south, above, below, and in-between.
Tena kho pana samayena dhūmāyitattaṁ timirāyitattaṁ gacchateva purimaṁ disaṁ, gacchati pacchimaṁ disaṁ, gacchati uttaraṁ disaṁ, gacchati dakkhiṇaṁ disaṁ, gacchati uddhaṁ disaṁ, gacchati adho disaṁ, gacchati anudisaṁ.The Buddha said to the mendicants,
Atha kho bhagavā bhikkhū āmantesi:“Mendicants, do you see that cloud of black smoke moving east, west, north, south, above, below, and in-between?”
“passatha no tumhe, bhikkhave, etaṁ dhūmāyitattaṁ timirāyitattaṁ gacchateva purimaṁ disaṁ …pe… gacchati anudisan”ti.“Yes, sir.” “Evaṁ, bhante”.
“That’s Māra the Wicked searching for Vakkali’s consciousness, wondering:
“Eso kho, bhikkhave, māro pāpimā vakkalissa kulaputtassa viññāṇaṁ samanvesati:‘Where is Vakkali’s consciousness established?’
‘kattha vakkalissa kulaputtassa viññāṇaṁ patiṭṭhitan’ti?But since his consciousness is not established, Vakkali is extinguished.”
Appatiṭṭhitena ca, bhikkhave, viññāṇena vakkali kulaputto parinibbuto”ti.
SN22.87
Now at that time a cloud of black smoke was moving east, west, north, south, above, below, and in-between.
Tena kho pana samayena dhūmāyitattaṁ timirāyitattaṁ gacchateva purimaṁ disaṁ, gacchati pacchimaṁ disaṁ, gacchati uttaraṁ disaṁ, gacchati dakkhiṇaṁ disaṁ, gacchati uddhaṁ, gacchati adho, gacchati anudisaṁ.Then the Buddha said to the mendicants,
Atha kho bhagavā bhikkhū āmantesi:“Mendicants, do you see that cloud of black smoke moving east, west, north, south, above, below, and in-between?”
“passatha no tumhe, bhikkhave, etaṁ dhūmāyitattaṁ timirāyitattaṁ gacchateva purimaṁ disaṁ, gacchati pacchimaṁ disaṁ, gacchati uttaraṁ disaṁ, gacchati dakkhiṇaṁ disaṁ, gacchati uddhaṁ, gacchati adho, gacchati anudisan”ti?“Yes, sir.”
“Evaṁ, bhante”.“That’s Māra the Wicked searching for Godhika’s consciousness, wondering:
“Eso kho, bhikkhave, māro pāpimā godhikassa kulaputtassa viññāṇaṁ samanvesati:‘Where is Godhika’s consciousness established?’
‘kattha godhikassa kulaputtassa viññāṇaṁ patiṭṭhitan’ti?But since his consciousness is not established, Godhika is extinguished.”
Appatiṭṭhitena ca, bhikkhave, viññāṇena godhiko kulaputto parinibbuto”ti.
SN4.23
So both stories share the exact same frame…
appatiṭṭhitena which means “unestablished” or “without a footing” occurs only in these 2 suttas and the milindapanha
vivattakkhandhaṃ which no-one knows the meaning of (see below), also occurs only in these twin suttas.
Godhika’s sāmayikaṃ cetovimuttiṃ “temporary freedom of heart” occurs nowhere else in the canon, Vakkali is maybe our only source for dhammaṁ passati so maṁ passati “who sees the teaching sees me” ?
So I guess I am wary of drawing any conclusions form what look to me like just 3 texts in the early material, the channa pair, the godhika vakkali pair and the Vinaya story.
one other thought; the godhika sutta is just wierd all over, Mara comes to the Buddha to warn him to prevent the suicide, while the Buddha says suicide is fine, then Mara recites his own exit poem, dropping a harp that in DN at least belongs to the spirit pañcasikho.
Metta