On the Election in the US

Hi Michael,

I agree with you that united views can lead to injustice. True.
United views were the cause that gay men and lesbian women were discriminated against for centuries or more and your own example about women who are not able to formally ordain as bhikkunis, is a “good” example, too.
But these are single, case by case judged issues: Trump and his followers (who might not even have exactly the same ideas as Trump himself) voice many ideas and worries and plans for change, and these too, should be judged on a case by case basis.
Especially we Buddhists should, if possible, not think in extremes.

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November 8 and 9, 2016 were pivotal days in my life. But perhaps not in the way you might think.

Before then, I thought Donald Trump’s improbable rise to the last race was due to the instability of the Republican party and that it would be a landslide for Hillary Clinton. I was sure that most American citizens, as well as most people in general, thought like me in the sense that one should treat others with respect and that society had evolved far beyond the words and behaviors of Donald Trump. The mountain of shocking and incredulous things that came out was not what the American people were all about, not the direction humanity was headed.

The results rocked me to my core. I realized that the Buddha was right on the money. My perceptions led me to my conditioned conceptualizations about everything. Knowing full well that forming views leads to quarrels and disputes, knowing full well that he taught me to not go there, I had gone there. And the worst part was that even after what happened I was forming new views to make sense if it all, to rationalize my place, my rightness, their wrongness, our rightness, their wrongness, good people, bad people.

Watching and listening to people talk about their loss, I heard the same hatred, bigotry, superiority, name-calling and clinging that I had been only hearing from one side. The divide between the American people wasn’t the fault of one brand of offending speech and behavior, it’s a two-way street. It’s not about who is right and who is not, it’s not about the right way to treat people. It’s not even the subject matter that’s the problem. And I was right there, thinking, speaking and doing the same things.

Many views are easy to see through and easy to set aside. The views around politics and national policies towards humanity specifically goes much, much deeper. How am I to apply the Buddha’s teaching to such things? Could the answer lie in clinging to views, albeit “noble” views?

Fortunately, for the prior few months I’d been focusing my practice on the Atthakavagga. In chapter 11, the Kalahavivāda sutta, the Buddha picks apart the building blocks of the essence of our world of delusion/confusion and exposes how we construct it. In this sutta he is addressing the origins of quarrels and disputes specifically, but it really applies to all views, particularly in light of his later redefinition of the Upanishadic notion of namarupa. Key for me in deeply relating to this sutta is understanding a few teachings in slightly different ways than are normally presented in the commentaries and schools of the religion of Buddhism. Notable are namarupa and papanca. Fully understanding namarupaviññana has been nothing short of revolutionary for my practice!

To help me use the teaching of the Kalahavivāda sutta in a practical way, I broke down the chain of dependency he describes and formatted it into two versions. The first is the habituated way that I want to avoid and the second is more of an affirmation and reminder of a better way:

I don’t realize it, but I live in a unique world completely created by my mind.
I create a fabricated world of false concepts and conclusions with me and mine firmly rooted in all of it.
When I sense anything, I don’t even notice that I automatically feel certain ways, perceive certain ways and create entire spectrums of concepts of what everything is.
My cobbled together view of everything tricks me into believing that I am a permanent, unchanging essence in full control of experiencing and orchestrating my being.
I have deeply rooted views, opinions and beliefs about what I know to be agreeable and disagreeable, true and false, right and wrong.
I have desires, yearnings and longings for everything to go the way I want and to not go the way I don’t want.
Things and ideas are loved, cherished, grasped for and clung to. Other things are disliked or hated and need to be avoided or removed.
I have an incessant thirst to grasp for what I want and push away what I don’t.
I defend my positions and strive to get others to see things my way and conform to what I know to be the truth.

Or…

I abide in peaceful awareness of the coming and going of appearances, fully knowing that they are ephemeral.
I have no inclination to touch, handle, shape or hold on to what is appearing and disappearing.
Sense impressions arise and pass without fabrication into some thing or some one.
I don’t assess, judge, prefer or thirst for anything to be or not be; I feel no pull of desire nor push of aversion.
Fully understanding how all is conditioned and dependent, I am fully free; released from the burden of constructing anything to hold on to, phenomena, dhammas or myself.
Happiness, joy and peace are with me like a never departing shadow.
When I encounter those in quarrels and disputes, it seems totally foreign and irrelevant and I feel compassion for those caught in the obvious snares of confusion, self-centeredness and greed.

I am grateful that the election helped me to delve more deeply into the essence of what the Buddha was pointing to. It has challenged me to question even my deepest held beliefs. It has shed light on so much, allowing me to notice how often in conversation that I spew out seemingly innocuous views. It has strengthened my commitment to live with purity, treat others better and to choose my words more carefully as to not get tangled in a thicket of views, no matter how noble they appear.

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Wonderful, Zenqi.

So much really thoughtful comment I didn’t know where to tap in a reply. As a fan of Bhikkhu Bodhi I decided to tap in here. I constantly worry that my own political viewpoints prove to be a hindrance but if I actively pursue a political view with justice in mind and peace in my heart I cannot help but feel that such a pursuit is valid. Taking a place in a march for climate change here in Canberra towards the end of 2015 I held aloft the international Buddhist flag, a peaceful gesture that I submit we should feel able to make, although, perhaps, in hindsight, I could have left the flag at home. Questions arose in my mind, such as, was my flag gesture no more than ego? Did I compromise the wider Buddhist community, some, if not many, would disagree with this or any other active participation in rallies? I have bee told by some Buddhist friends in the past that I am bringing a western political consciousness to issues that should be left alone but I cannot agree with them; however, their cautionary advice did show me that I must take care not to alienate and distress other members of the wider Buddhist community. I walk a little more softly now than perhaps I did in my younger days.

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Thanks for very insightful advice, Michael!

A very nice and valid answer, but I still fully understand @Leon74’s concern and think you somewhat failed to address it in your reply. My biggest issue was that there was no attribution as to who made the decision to use the black band, whose opinion it was and, finally, that there indeed was nothing similar to it when much bigger tragedies struck. I think we would all agree that the SC monastics and lay members can have their opinions on political and social matters and are welcome to be vocal about them. However, the way it was done, the black band looked like it was the opinion of the entire community - which it was not. Any definite attribution like ‘monk Sacensacco’ or ‘SC team’ would have solved the problem, and the issue is much more serious than one thinks. Small things like this can start a spiral of silence in a community, and believe me, this silence will be far from noble. Besides, I really have a strong feeling that making such a huge deal out of Trump’s victory when compared to war in the Ukraine, Syria, Kongo, Yemen, Lybia, Afghanistan and lots and lots of other places, compared to famine and epidemies in Africa, compared to unthinkable horrors happening every day in tyrannical countries like North Korea, compared to it all it is dishonest.

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It seems to me that the great value of the monastic sangha in this impermanent, greed-driven and hate-driven world is that it is a place one can go to remember that the pure and holy life, a world of renunciation and santi where those who have gone forth live as friends to all, actually exists and is practiced by some men and woman. They live to remind others that escape from suffering is possible, and to keep the path open and visible to those who seek it. They are a refuge, for Visakha and Agulimala, for Anathapindika and Ambapali alike.

The world is run by the armies of Mara. It alwasy has been, and alwasy will be, because greed, hatred and delusion are part of the perpetual human condition. They are not just temporary defects that will fixed once we elect the right government. Of course, things can get better and worse out here in the world in relative terms, and those of us who live lives in the world do what we can to care for other beings the best we can, within the bounds of what is realistically achievable. But I don’t think we should ask those who have gone forth to do the same. Rather it is our obligation to support them in the holy life, a kind of life that is difficult, precious and rare, and so needs all the nurturing it can get.

The moment a monastic leader takes a position on some worldly issue, from that same moment people who don’t share the same position on that issue feel themselves to be excluded, unwelcome, objects of suspicion. They no longer have an unconditional refuge.

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Hi @Vstakan,

I see it differently… Somebody expressed how they feel, that’s probably all there is to it. I don’t think the design of the website has something to do with the opinion of the entire community on the election result in US. We can all agree on kindness, respecting each other etc., but on Trump… no way.

Hi @DKervick,

One of our three refuges is the Sangha, not an individual monastic. Why monastics can’t share their opinions on something they feel is important? It doesn’t matter I agree with them or not. Opinion of one or two monastics has nothing to do with our refuge in the Sangha. For example, sometimes I might even not like what Ajahn Brahm says and disagree with him. Will I lose my refuge in the Sangha because of that? No. Will I respect and admire him less because of that? No. And it would be stupid of me not to learn from him the beautiful Dhamma he shares with the world. I try to look the same way on any other monastic I feel blessed to learn from.

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Of course you see it that way because of your opinions on Trump. But taking into consideration your last sentence, I wonder if you would have felt the same if SuttaCentral would have expressed sympathy for Trump.

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Some things that seem relevant to me:

There is nowhere in the suttas where the Buddha says something like “Ananda, we must issue a statement on this business with the Vajjians.” Nor, I believe, does he issue any kind of public statement on the Kolyans. Or on the parricide, King Ajatasattu. And many of these people are just as horrible as any contemporary ruler. Even when his own Sakyans were completely massacred by Virudhaka, and the Buddha saw his own young cousins groaning and dying in a pit, it is reported in the legends that the Buddha merely made a prediction to his own company of bhikkhus about Virudhaka’s fate.

There was a public statement on Devadatta, but that was a matter that pertained to the sangha itself.

Nor does the sangha of the Buddha’s time ally itself with any regime, or become co-opted as an organ of any regime. They accept support from anyone who offers it, but that support sometimes comes from both one ruler and his rival at the same time. It appears they attempt to thrive as a company of renouncers outside “the world”, and when people abandon their former ways of life to go forth, they are described as “leaving the world.”

The monks are upbraided for discussing politics and other worldly affairs. They are instructed that whenever they gather together, they should either talk about the dhamma, or maintain noble silence.

The Buddha’s few reported, wary comments on worldly affairs come up in small or private conferences with people who have sought out the Buddha, or with his closest associates. For example, the king’s minister Vassakāra comes to the Buddha and informs him of the king’s intention of attacking the Vajjians. The Buddha allows Vassakāra to overhear a conversation with Ananda about the practices of the Vajjians. And then he simply tells the minister that, because the Vajjians run their community in certain virtuous ways, they can be expected to thrive in all of their affairs.

Vassakāra draws his own vicious conclusions from the conversation, deciding that since the King will not be able to succeed through violent action, he will have to employ wrong speech instead!

The Buddha does recommend various practices for living in harmony, but they are of a very general nature.

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Dan, I turned to Bhikkhu Bodhi’s new book and found some citations where the Buddha was either communicating directly with kings, or was discussing the behavior of kings with the monks. I offer these for friendly consideration.

The next section briefly looks at the Buddha’s political vision. In his time, the Indian subcontinent was divided into sixteen states, which were of two types: tribal republics and monarchies. We already saw an example of the Buddha’s advice to the republican leaders in Text VII, 3( 4), on the seven conditions for non-decline that he taught to the Vajjis…in Text X, 6( 1) he describes the role of the king, ascribing an almost mystical potency to the influence of the ruler’s conduct on his realm. In an age of military struggles over territory, he condemned the resort to war as a means of resolving conflicts. Text X, 6( 2) states that victory only breeds enmity and maintains the cycle of retaliation.

The king’s obligation to relieve poverty is elaborated in X, 6( 6). Here, in a story purportedly referring to the distant past, a wise chaplain — who is none other than the Buddha in a previous birth — advises the king that the proper way to end the theft and brigandage plaguing his realm is not by imposing harsher punishments and stricter law enforcement but by giving the citizens the means they need to earn a decent living. Once the people enjoy a satisfactory standard of living, they lose all interest in harming others…

One example is AN 4:70:

“When kings are unrighteous, the royal vassals become unrighteous. When the royal vassals are unrighteous, brahmins and householders become unrighteous. When brahmins and householders are unrighteous, the people of the towns and countryside become unrighteous. When the people of the towns and countryside are unrighteous, the sun and moon proceed off course. …So too, among human beings, when the one considered the chief conducts himself righteously, other people do so as well. The entire kingdom rejoices if the king is righteous. (AN 4: 70, NDB 458– 59)

The Wheel-Turning Monarch

The Blessed One said: “Monks, even a wheel-turning monarch, a just and righteous king, does not govern his realm without a co-regent.” A certain monk asked: “But who, Bhante, is the co-regent of the wheel-turning monarch, the just and righteous king?” “It is the Dhamma, the law of righteousness,” replied the Blessed One. “The wheel-turning monarch, the just and righteous king, relying on the Dhamma, honoring the Dhamma, esteeming andrespecting it, with the Dhamma as his standard, banner, and sovereign, provides lawful protection, shelter, and safety for his own dependents. He provides lawful protection, shelter, and safety for the khattiyas attending on him; for his army, for the brahmins and householders, for the inhabitants of town and countryside, for ascetics and brahmins, for the beasts and birds. A wheel-turning monarch, a just and righteous king, who thus provides lawful protection, shelter, and safety for all, is the one who rules by Dhamma only. And that rule cannot be overthrown by any hostile human being.” (from AN 3: 14)

Bodhi. The Buddha’s Teachings on Social and Communal Harmony: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon (The Teachings of the Buddha) (Kindle). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

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Hi AnagarikaMichael,

Yes, but I think then that is consistent with the idea I offered earlier that the Buddha refrained from making public statements on political matters, but reserved his comments for individual private conferences and talks with his own circle of monks.

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Personally I’m not a fan of Trump or his politics, however, I still interpreted the black band as carrying the implicit message that “this website is the sort of place where people don’t like Trump”.

It’s not hard to see how someone who is a fan of Trump and his politics could interpret the black band as “Trump supporters not welcome.”

Changing the design of the webpage to make a statement, that will give that statement a “this is what this webpage is about” feel, that’s just basic psychology.

Even as someone who strongly disagrees with Trump, I can see how the black band could feel like a non-inclusive gesture for someone with different views.

Edit: I hope this post doesn’t read like I’m trying to be real harsh or something. Sometimes when I re-read my own posts the emotional tone comes off totally different then what was in my mind when I wrote it.

With metta :slight_smile:

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Dan, yes, you’re right that what I posted reinforces the underlying point that you made.

I take from the selections I made a sense of confidence that there is a proper role for our leading monastics to take in voicing counsel or opinions on matters that are social, governmental, and political. The Buddha that I sense from the Suttas was something of an activist and an advocate, though we all properly see the Buddha through the lens of our own experience and psychology.

While I am in support of Theravada monastics voicing concerns and being advocates for peace, justice and harmony, caution is needed. In my own view, there are really but a few monastics that I trust with this kind of soapbox.

I’m sure there are many of us here that are drawn to Sutta Central due to Bhante Sujato’s very unique combination of intellect, scholarship, advocacy and emotional intelligence. I feel he’s unique and extraordinary, and I trust his counsel on matters of Dhamma and of human affairs. Just a few hours on the “Sujato’s Blog” gives one an insight into his wisdom and character. We need more voices like his in ‘Theravada,’ and less of the generic, placid, meek, non-judgmental approaches that are more endemic in western monastic circles.

I see these characteristics, too, in Ajahn Brahm, Ayya Vimala, Ayya Tathaaloka, Ajahn Brahmali, and a few others in the Forest tradition. Bhikkhu Bodhi has certainly taken a leading role as a advocate and voice of Dhammic counsel in matters of justice, politics, food security, the environment, and conflict issues. I trust these monastics and seek out their views on matters of importance. I want to hear and read more from them on matters that concern human affairs and global issues; I may even vary with their positions on these issues. So, maybe the “black band” was a shot across the bow to complacency; it resonated with me and I heard it loud and clear. For others, it was over the top, and I respect that view.

That’s the risk that is taken when our trusted monastics take a stand on issues. There can be some offense taken, and temporary emotional schisms created, perhaps. But, for this select group of trusted voices, I want more of this Dhammic advocacy , not less. I feel there is place for leading Theravada Buddhists to take in these matters, and I trust that most of us will be able to absorb and evaluate these voices wisely.

Finally, I am glad for everyone that contributes to this Watercooler thread. It just reinforces for me the excellent intellect, insight, and nature of the people here, and makes me appreciate this SC more and more, even when we disagree.

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Hi Michael,

Putting here a black band -whoever did it- without any nuancation is not Dhammic advocacy, it is just about getting entangled in views and keeping the wheel of samsara turning.
Monastics have to be very, very careful with what they are saying.
I’m a big “fan” of Ajahn Brahm, but a few weeks ago, he talked about abortion and I think he talked MUCH too lightly and one-sided about that topic.
He almost only talked about what women having abortions are going through, and it is good that he talked about it, but I didn’t hear him talking about the precept telling us to abstain from taking life nor did I hear him differentiate between women who could and could not have prevented getting pregnant in the first place.

Normally Ajahn Brahm has very nuanced views (in my opinion) but this time I was surprised.
People who are new to Buddhism and viewed that dhamma talk, could have thought that all Buddhists think the same about it and leave the dhamma altogether.
And now this was only one issue - Trump is a whole vessel of issues.

Monastics talking about political issues is not a good thing, in general.

edit: And actually that goes for all of us - not only monastics. By the way: if Human rights are violated or similar issues: deeds is what is needed: “paper( words) is patient” we say in Dutch.

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Hi AnagarikaMichael. I guess I just have to disagree respectfully with you on this. I don’t think the Buddha was much of an activist, or anything like a modern “engaged Buddhist”. He abandoned both his family and his life in his community, along with the ceaseless rounds of struggles, passions, acquisition, fear and violence that are inherent in worldly affairs, to become a homeless wanderer. After achieving his goal of final release from all worldly bonds, and the blissful joy and peace that come from having totally put down the burden of our unsatisfiable cravings for one preferred form of existence or another, in this world or any other kind of world, he decided to help others achieve the same thing he had achieved, and gathered around himself a groups of followers who were equally sickened by worldly life, and sought to follow the Buddha in the holy life.

This vision of life, which is both pessimistic about the human social world and its miserable typical affairs, but optimistic about the potential of human beings trapped in this world to achieve liberation from it, sits very uneasily with our modern, post-enlightenment western progressive outlooks. Many of us have absorbed through our modern upbringing the idea of the perfectibility of the human race, the progressive forward thrust of history, and a conception of the good and moral life that is heavily politicized and socially active, and defined by social duties. I don’t believe that was the Buddha’s vision. In all of those rebirth stories, for example, the social worlds that are described, and are supposed to have existed aeons ago, look remarkably identical to the ancient Indian world in which the Buddha existed, and the vision of of the future in the legends of Buddhas to come also seems little different from the present. It is a wheel of Sisyphean recurrence, without discernible beginning or end, of aging, sickness and death in a world on fire with greed, hatred and confusion. The Buddha attempted to teach a way of life whereby individuals could get off the wheel, not a scheme of long-term social improvement.

I do think this vision, and the kind of life it holds up as best, has a potentially positive impact on ordinary social life, however, because it transforms the worldly hierarchy of values. Instead of valorizing the normal, animal human drives toward sensual gratification, lust and reproduction, struggle, territory, conquest and domination, it presents the highest possible attainment of human life as a place of peace that lies in precisely the opposite direction from the direction those ordinary animal drives push, and can be achieved by resisting and restraining those drives, deepening one’s detachment from the restless “I” of our swirling thoughts and bodily states, and moving against their natural grain or flow. The monastic sangha keeps alive the possibility, and reality, of the holy life and its lofty, blissful goal. And by venerating that life and goal, the community of lay worldly Buddhists is able to keep its vision directed, at least occasionally, in the right place, and away from the proliferating confusions of sensual attachments and the pain they inevitably bring.

I think it is up to lay Buddhists to do the speaking on how to apply the Buddha’s vision in some constructive way to the management of our fraught worldly affairs. People like Aung San Suu Kyi can try doing that. But let’s leave those poor holy monks in peace, to seek peace, and to maintain a refuge for people who need to escape from worldy misery when it becomes too great for them, and not try to draft the monks into the armies of Mara and the wars of worldly life. We can feed them, make sure they are housed and clothed and have enough medicine, and otherwise try to keep the worldly winds from battering down their door.

There may be some frustration in Theravada communities these days with the absence of prominent public voices speaking to give the Theravada Buddhist “position” on all sorts of social issues. Maybe they have Pope-envy or Dalai Lama-envy. But to my mind, that is a strength of Theravada, which adheres much more closely to the authentic and original Buddhist path. On most public policy questions, which tend to be very complex and interconnected in many ways, I don’t think there is a clearly definable Buddhist position anyway. But bhikkhus can continue to remind everyone how hatred, grasping and sensual desire or craving bring suffering into our lives - everyone’s lives.

It could also be that we westerners, even if we are not Christians, have absorbed much of our conception of what a religion is from the traditions of the Christian Church. We might think there is a Buddhist “church” that is supposed to have a magisterial teaching authority touching almost all human affairs, or think monks are supposed to be “pastors” - shepherds leading their flocks through the world. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think this was the Buddha’s conception of the right relationship between sangha and laity.

In the United States - and I assume it’s similar in other western countries - a degenerate (to my mind) form of Buddhism is taking hold, where it has been reduced to an extension of the conventional secular liberal western worldview, defined by the usual progressive causes and attitudes, with a little bit poetry, metaphysical philosophy and psychotherapeutic stress reduction thrown in. It is losing sight, in my opinion, of the summum bonum of the Buddhist path. Now there are even prominent Buddhists teaching people that there is “good” anger and “good” passion, etc., in direct contradistinction, I think, to clear Buddhist teaching.

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Sorry, I’m talking too much.A way of dealing with the stress. :confused:

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Hear, hear. I’d be very interested in discussing what we know or can infer of the early Sangha’s relationship with the laity, and of course what we can learn today from that. On a different thread, of course. I’ll be busy next week, but if any of you has any insights or perhaps a good, recent essay on this and liked to start, I’d be very much obliged.

Dan, I agree on pretty much of what you said but please :anguished:don’t say ‘degenerate’ as it unreasonably puts me in mind of that Nazi thing about Mahler’s music and the rest … anything from “misguided” to name-calling would do :relaxed: Metta to you all

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