On the meaning of yoniso

[RobynG76]

Dear Ajahn @Brahmali,

A side track…

In another thread you discussed dhammavicaya and it seems to me these two ideas are very closely related, though I’m not sure I would say synonymous.

@Brahmali

Dhammavicaya (“investigation of mental qualities”) is supported on one side by mindfulness and on the other side it leads to energy (viriya) and joy (pīti). As has been pointed out above, mindfulness here seems to be used quite broadly, and the suttas specifically support interpreting it as either satipaṭṭhāna or dhammānussatī. When it refers to satipaṭṭhāna, it makes good sense to equate dhammavicaya with dhammānupassanā, the last of the satipaṭṭhānas. Both have to do with understanding good and bad mental qualities, and both have samādhi as their aim. The purpose of investigating these mental qualities is obviously to enable you to let go of them. As you do so you are removing some of the last barriers to samādhi, and joy and energy will be the natural result. And this is what you see in the factors of awakening and also in dependent liberation.

Do you think there is a basis for interpreting dhamma vicaya as a narrow application of yoniso manisikara? I can’t think of any suttas where the two terms are discussed together.

I was thinking it was narrow in that it is directed at samadhi practice so is only concerned with what can take it deeper as opposed to some other principle of dhamma such as XXX?? But when composing this question I hit a wall, I can’t think of anything you could investigate independently of dhamma principles where seeing any kind of causality/conditionality might bring peace and therefore assist samadhi - i.e. any application of yoniso manisikara, or dhamma vicaya, would lead to greater peace and therefore increase potential for samadhi.

Then I wondered if I was making an assumption in thinking that yoniso manisikara would be applied with dhamma principles in mind? So yoniso manisikara could then be done with no prior understanding of dhamma, but when you do it with dhamma knowledge (at least having heard it) dhamma vicaya would be yoniso manisikara with dhamma.

I feel a bit lost and caught up in thoughts about thinking!

with metta and appreciation for your work!

PS: not sure if this warranted being split as a separate topic as it might just end up with one or two answers??

PPS: loving the 2021 sutta retreat

Thanks @Adutiya for the link to the Analayo article, it was a good read!!