Pleasant and painful paths as modes of practice or just conditions for practice?

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Hello there! :slight_smile:

As I understand, there are no translations of commentaries into english, so if one needs to look one up, one needs to know pali. Unfortunately, I don’t know pali yet. Would anyone who knows pali be so kind and tell me what commentaries say to the following sutta(s) (I’m researching so called "pleasant path of practice):

AN4.163 Asubhasutta

Mendicants, there are four ways of practice. What four?

  1. Painful practice with slow insight,
  2. painful practice with swift insight,
  3. pleasant practice with slow insight, and
  4. pleasant practice with swift insight.

And what’s the painful practice with slow insight? It’s when a mendicant meditates observing the ugliness of the body, perceives the repulsiveness of food, perceives dissatisfaction with the whole world, observes the impermanence of all conditions, and has well established the perception of their own death. They rely on these five powers of a trainee: faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom. But these five faculties manifest in them weakly: faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. Because of this, they only slowly attain the conditions for ending the defilements in the present life. This is called the painful practice with slow insight.

And what’s the painful practice with swift insight? It’s when a mendicant meditates observing the ugliness of the body, perceives the repulsiveness of food, perceives dissatisfaction with the whole world, observes the impermanence of all conditions, and has well established the perception of their own death. They rely on these five powers of a trainee: faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom. And these five faculties manifest in them strongly: faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. Because of this, they swiftly attain the conditions for ending the defilements in the present life. This is called the painful practice with swift insight.

And what’s the pleasant practice with slow insight? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ Giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, they enter and remain in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. They rely on these five powers of a trainee: faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom. But these five faculties manifest in them weakly: faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. Because of this, they only slowly attain the conditions for ending the defilements in the present life. This is called the pleasant practice with slow insight.

And what’s the pleasant practice with swift insight? It’s when a mendicant … enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption … They rely on these five powers of a trainee: faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom. And these five faculties manifest in them strongly: faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. Because of this, they swiftly attain the conditions for ending the defilements in the present life. This is called the pleasant practice with swift insight.

These are the four ways of practice.”

What is really interesting about AN4.163, is that painful and pleasant practices relate not only to various kammic conditions, but also to actual method of practice. Interestingly, in 4.166 Ubhayasutta , Buddha says that pleasant practice is superior to painful one:

“Mendicants, there are four ways of practice. What four?

  1. Painful practice with slow insight,
  2. painful practice with swift insight,
  3. pleasant practice with slow insight, and
  4. pleasant practice with swift insight.

Of these, the painful practice with slow insight is said to be inferior in both ways: because it’s painful and because it’s slow. This practice is said to be inferior in both ways.

The painful practice with swift insight is said to be inferior because it’s painful.

The pleasant practice with slow insight is said to be inferior because it’s slow.

The pleasant practice with swift insight is said to be superior in both ways: because it’s pleasant, and because it’s swift. This practice is said to be superior in both ways.

These are the four ways of practice.”

In AN4.162 Vitthārasutta we also find 4 ways of practice, both pleasant and unpleasant, but here they don’t deal with method of practice but, only various kammic conditions for practice:

“Mendicants, there are four ways of practice. What four?

  1. Painful practice with slow insight,
  2. painful practice with swift insight,
  3. pleasant practice with slow insight, and
  4. pleasant practice with swift insight.

And what’s the painful practice with slow insight? It’s when someone is ordinarily full of acute greed, hate, and delusion. They often feel the pain and sadness that greed, hate, and delusion bring. These five faculties manifest in them weakly: faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. Because of this, they only slowly attain the conditions for ending the defilements in the present life. This is called the painful practice with slow insight.

And what’s the painful practice with swift insight? It’s when someone is ordinarily full of acute greed, hate, and delusion. They often feel the pain and sadness that greed, hate, and delusion bring. And these five faculties manifest in them strongly: faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. Because of this, they swiftly attain the conditions for ending the defilements in the present life. This is called the painful practice with swift insight.

And what’s pleasant practice with slow insight? It’s when someone is not ordinarily full of acute greed, hate, and delusion. They rarely feel the pain and sadness that greed, hate, and delusion bring. These five faculties manifest in them weakly: faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. Because of this, they only slowly attain the conditions for ending the defilements in the present life. This is called the pleasant practice with slow insight.

And what’s the pleasant practice with swift insight? It’s when someone is not ordinarily full of acute greed, hate, and delusion. They rarely feel the pain and sadness that greed, hate, and delusion bring. These five faculties manifest in them strongly: faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. Because of this, they swiftly attain the conditions for ending the defilements in the present life. This is called the pleasant practice with swift insight.

These are the four ways of practice.”

What is most interesting me is that if we can infer that path of jhanas and generally more plesanat path is more preferable to the “painful path”. This is my take on it, but I would love to know what commentaries and parallels say about it, if anyone knows. :slight_smile: I wonder how far we can go into “pleasant path interpretation”. I have a feeling that path can be filled with metta in general, like for example Ajahn Brahm teaches, and this suttas might be good case for it.

Anyway this is very importaint suttas for my work, so if anyone would be so kind to provide info what commentaries say and maybe even parallels, that would be very helpful for me and I’d be grateful :anjal: So I kindly ask for your help. :slight_smile:

With Metta and gratitude :slight_smile: :pray:

PS: Also if anyone wishes to express their take on these suttas, especially AN4.163 and pleasant and painful methods of practice, then please do! :slight_smile: I don’t mind this if topic would become a discussion (we can then even change the category), but also would be great to know what commentaries and eventually parallels say - it might be useful also for the discussion. :slight_smile: Lots of Metta to all D&D! :slight_smile:

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Just a quick perspective.

I believe that these are more descriptions of paths of practice rather than prescriptions for paths of practice. As you point out there is a heavy kammic influence. There may not be that much choice about the matter. Also, it makes sense that by default everyone would want the quick and pleasurable path… so why would anyone take another if it is only a matter of choice?

EG if…

and

Then

ie there is no choice, it is dependent on conditions - degree of defilements present and degree of development of Spiritual Faculties

The quick and pleasurable path is only available if

and

Then

So the type of path (one of the 4 possible ones the Buddha identifies) is directly based on conditions. One can’t choose to have well developed spiritual faculties - they themselves are developed through conditioning and the elimination of defilements, and increase of spiritual faculties through the practice of the N8fP.

This would indicate to me also that as the faculties are developed the speed and pleasure experienced in the path increases. Ie. that suffering decreases the further along the Path one is. :slight_smile: For me this makes most sense with a multi-life perspective, as these things are conditioned over long periods of time and this is where the kamma comes in. It may/will have started in previous lives with a slower and more painful progress, and as one progresses then the faster and more pleasant it is.

It looks like there are no parallels to this one. If this is the case then it could strengthen the idea that it would be less about choice for a superior path, and again more about descriptions of paths available in specific conditions.

Best wishes for your research :slight_smile:

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Supabuddha the Leper could be a candidate for this.

Bahiya Barkcloth could be a candidate for swift as well.

Insight refers to seeing the drawbacks of the 5 aggregates such as anicca, dukkha, anatta. I would imagine that this could be unpleasant considering the suttas describe them as a thorn and disease. I’d imagine it’s like becoming aware that your hand is resting on a hot stove top, which would arise an immediate painful perception, and removing the hand would be a huge relief. Jhana would be the tranquilzer anesthesia and pain killer to that burn.

The Buddha did use a metaphor of hot burning coals for sensuality, and cool water spring for jhana.

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Thank you for your answers.

I agree that AN4.162 deals with only with kammic conditions. But as to AN4.163 I’m not so sure. It seems like whether path is swift or slow depends indeed solely on conditions, because according to this sutta, path is swift for those who have strong five faculties (indriyas), and slow for those who have them weak.

But in AN4.163, painful practice is dealing mostly with contemplations leading to seeing suffering and impermanence:

It’s when a mendicant meditates observing the ugliness of the body, perceives the repulsiveness of food, perceives dissatisfaction with the whole world, observes the impermanence of all conditions, and has well established the perception of their own death.

And pleasant practice in practice of jhanas, which is usually connected with cultivating pleasant mind states:

It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption… second absorption… third absorption… fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.

I agree that these are also conditioned to a degree, but we can also choose to a degree what practices we do. And for example cetovimutti by brahma-viharas is almost the same as jhanas, so it would fall into “pleasant” category of this sutta. Ajahn Brahm says that jhanas reached by brahma-viharas, are same thing with different flavour (I mean there more warm brahma-viharas: metta, karuna, mudita. Bhikkhu Analayo compares these three to the sun, and upekkha to the moon - signifying different flavour).

Even yesterday in Jhana Grove I was talking with a lady, who meditates on metta, filling her body with pleasant energy of light etc. I too know to a degree both modes of practice: one more “painful”, when I just contemplate perception of suffering and impermanence in various aspects of life and cultivating detachment and if done well it leads more to “moony” upekkha. And other one, when I develop more positive healing energy of “sunny” brahma-viharas (metta, karuna, mudita), which leads more to piti-sukha. I notice change in my mind if I do this for a longer period of time. Both “moony” and “sunny” effects are nice. But as to the path of getting to them, I’d say is more pleasant when develoing “sunny” brahma-viharas.

Of course not everyone can choose 100% which practices will be suitable for her/him. But if someone can do both ways, then perhaps Buddha in AN4.166 suggests that it is better to choose the pleasant path? I’m just wondering. :slight_smile:

PS: To put it another way: painful practice as for method, seems like trying to realise complete detachment from the get go. And pleasant practice seems like path of first developing positive attachment to rupa-loka/arupa-loka (jhana and arupa samapattis), before letting go of everything.

So maybe painful practice refers more to so called dry-insight path (I don’t believe in dry-insight, so lets say: dryer insight :slight_smile: ), and pleasant practice to path through deep-jhanas? Of course both paths need degree of samadhi and contemplation of three characteristics in daily life, it is just “different flavour” of the path.

To give examples from real like, for example Ajahn Punnadhammo speaks really a lot in his dhamma talks about just seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta in everyday mundane life. He also speaks about jhanas, but strong emphasis is put on seeing three characteristics in day-to-day life, in normal state of consciousness, doing chores etc. And Ajahn Brahm speaks a lot about developing metta, kindness, piti-sukha, to really bliss out in jhanas and then really get on with insight and let go of samsara. He speaks often that it is waste of time trying to get deep insight without jhanas. He encourages more to do chores with mind filled with “sunny” brahma-viharas (at least in the last years of teaching).

Of course both are speaking of gradual letting go and of samadhi. But there is difference in degree. So I think these painful and pleasant path are not exactly “black and white”, but shades of grey, with different strength of emphasis. And I think we have a degree of choice which shades of grey we wish to cultivate in our path. And maybe in this sutta Buddha suggests it is better to cultivate the more pleasant way, if we can? Thoughts? :slight_smile:

PPS: I deeply respect both paths and both Ajahns. And I understand people have different conditioning and all buddhist paths are beautiful and great. I just wonder if we can interpret this sutta (AN4.163) if one is prefferable for those who have capacity to develop both methods. My post is just for inqiury purpose, I hope it doesn’t offend anyone or create any tense discussion. :slight_smile: I think this might be useful for those, who are still deciding to which mode of practice really commit to. With Metta :slight_smile: :yellow_heart:

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Just some food for thought…

Not everyone is capable of developing metta as an object. If one can, then this already gives and indication of what is happening and what defilements are present or absent.

Eg if one has a problem of ill-will, then it is sometimes not possible to develop metta - metta is not necessarily the antidote. Eg. An antidote in this circumstance is developing compassion. This involves the understanding and perception of non-self - that the person is subject to their conditioning and not being mean or unskillful on purpose in order to annoy you. So the antidote is to contemplate conditioning and non-self. Indeed there is the sutta which lists the types of ‘antidote’ that can be tried , in order - from metta, right through to gritting ones teeth and using brute will power to suppress the unwholesome. So this is always a variable thing where the most appropriate approach is chosen based on the presenting conditions.

If one is able to develop the Brahmaviharas, that is great, then there IS a choice, and I would suggest that this ability directly reflects the conditions the Buddha speaks about, which defilements at what strength are present at that time, and which spiritual faculties are present in what strength. The ability to actively choose the most appropriate methods is degree of skill in Yoniso Manasikara and Right Effort.

Also regarding some of the contemplation on the unpleasant - this is the ‘antidote’ to craving. One must work to reduce craving of the unwholesome that leads to negative states and vice versa for increasing desire for the wholesome and positive states. Without seclusion from unwholesome craving, one will be unable to engage with the more refined pleasures of the spiritual path. If the craving for unwholesome is very strong, then there will be agitation and discomfort when trying to calm it down, and as such the antidotes need to be employed, sense restraint and clear seeing of wholesome v/s unwholesome. Trying to practice metta when strongly agitated by craving for the unwholesome or by aversion, won’t be successful - so another strategy needs to be employed in those circumstances.

So it all comes down to the gradual training, and recognising where one is :slight_smile: And then the process is really quite natural. Remember also that the Buddha says that for those still bound by delusion, what the Buddha sees as pleasant, they see as unpleasant and vice versa… SO there is a transformation in what is actually perceived as pleasant, which must be a precursor to happily cultivate and abide in those states :slight_smile: If one sees metta, compassion, mudita and upekha as a waste of time, can’t relate them to their experience of the world, or even sees them as weak or stupid, then they will not be able to successfully cultivate them. Only when one already sees them as wholesome, beneficial and skillful, will one have the capacity to develop them further. The same with meditation, the same with attaining samadhi. The further along one goes, the less the defilements, the more developed the spiritual faculties, then the more access there is to what the Buddha describes as the pleasant, sublime and blissful :slight_smile:

For me the bottom line is the right thing (beneficial, skillful and leading to positive states) at the right time. This ‘right’ thing is never static across all circumstances but varies. It is an important skill to know what to use when, to greatest effect. :slight_smile:

I hope these reflections help to stimulate further contemplation

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Thank you for the answer. :slight_smile: I agree that Buddha teaches that yoniso manasikara is to develop both meditations that dissolve craving, aversion and other defilements and to develop all factors of awakening.

There are suttas that speak directly about this, like AN3.68 and SN46.51. :slight_smile:

Anyway, I’ve picked up Bhikkhu Bodhi’s Anguttara Nikaya translation with comments, and he actually has a comment on relevant sutta, AN4.169, where we find division into four modes of practice:

  1. One person becomes fully extinguished in the present life by making extra effort.
  2. One person becomes fully extinguished when the body breaks up by making extra effort.
  3. One person becomes fully extinguished in the present life without making extra effort.
  4. One person becomes fully extinguished when the body breaks up without making extra effort.

The practice “with making extra effort” is the same at the painful practice from AN4.163:

And how does a person become fully extinguished in the present life by making extra effort? It’s when a mendicant meditates observing the ugliness of the body, perceives the repulsiveness of food, perceives dissatisfaction with the whole world, observes the impermanence of all conditions, and has well established the perception of their own death. They rely on these five powers of a trainee: faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom. And these five faculties manifest in them strongly: faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. Because of the strength of the five faculties, they become fully extinguished in the present life by making extra effort. That’s how a person becomes fully extinguished in the present life by making extra effort.

And the practice “without making extra effort” is the same as the pleasant practice from AN4.163:

And how does a person become fully extinguished in the present life without making extra effort? It’s when a mendicant … enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption … They rely on these five powers of a trainee: faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom. And these five faculties manifest in them strongly: faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. Because of the strength of the five faculties, they become fully extinguished in the present life without making extra effort. That’s how a person becomes fully extinguished in the present life without making extra effort.

And Bhikkhu Bodhi in his comment to this sutta (AN4.169) relates to traditional commentary (Manorathapurani - Anguttara-Nikaya-Atthakatha), saying:

According to this sutta, the distincion between the use of repugnant objects and the jhanas determines whether one attains nibbana through exertion or without exertion. (…) Mp says that the first and second persons [using repugnant objects] are dry-insight meditators (sukhavipassaka) who attend to conditioned phenomena as their meditation object. (…) The third and fourth persons [using jhanas] are those who take serenity as their vehicle (samthayanika).

It seems like my intuitions were in line with the commentary. Though of course it is in line with what Viveka written, because both practitioners need to use yoniso manasikara in both ways. As I’ve written, I think this is a matter of degree what meditation types are used in formal practice.

I’ll know for the future to look up Bhikkhu Bodhi’s commentaries. :slight_smile: Sadly I don’t have them home, but hopefully I’ll be able to get them one day. :slight_smile:

With Metta :yellow_heart: :slight_smile:

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